Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 9th Feb 18, 3:55 PM
    • 35Posts
    • 8Thanks
    charlie 2015
    Training costs
    • #1
    • 9th Feb 18, 3:55 PM
    Training costs 9th Feb 18 at 3:55 PM
    Hi there,

    I am posting this on behalf of a friend, lets call her Betty.

    Betty has been working for her at her company for over 2 years. The company agreed to pay training costs for her to become qualified in her profession. The company signed her up on the training course at a local college and she started in January 2017. In February 2017, Betty found out she was pregnant and informed the company.

    In February 2017 (after finding out Betty was pregnant) the company asked her to sign a document saying that she will be liable for the training costs if she leaves the role, is dismissed or fails the training exams. The document does not outline the costs associated to the training course.

    Betty signed the document and has said herself she felt pressured and that it was sprung on her after she informed the company she was pregnant.

    Betty is now coming to the final few months of her maternity leave. Ideally, she would like to quit her job to become a full time mum but is terrified of the costs she could be liable for.

    Has her employer acted lawfully here? Has she signed her life away with this document?

    Any help would be appreciated
Page 1
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 9th Feb 18, 5:53 PM
    • 1,201 Posts
    • 2,499 Thanks
    nicechap
    • #2
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:53 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:53 PM
    Hi there,

    I am posting this on behalf of a friend, lets call her Betty.

    Betty has been working for her at her company for over 2 years. The company agreed to pay training costs for her to become qualified in her profession. The company signed her up on the training course at a local college and she started in January 2017. In February 2017, Betty found out she was pregnant and informed the company.

    In February 2017 (after finding out Betty was pregnant) the company asked her to sign a document saying that she will be liable for the training costs if she leaves the role, is dismissed or fails the training exams. The document does not outline the costs associated to the training course.

    Betty signed the document and has said herself she felt pressured and that it was sprung on her after she informed the company she was pregnant.

    Betty is now coming to the final few months of her maternity leave. Ideally, she would like to quit her job to become a full time mum but is terrified of the costs she could be liable for.

    Has her employer acted lawfully here? Has she signed her life away with this document?

    Any help would be appreciated
    Originally posted by charlie 2015

    Presumably the answers to your previous thread would help "Betty" too.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5615239

    Just after a bit of advice if possible.


    I have worked for my employer for just under 2 years. I was promoted to a new role within the same company around 5 months ago. Part of this role is to attend college on block release. I started the college course 4 months ago. I have recently found out I am pregnant and informed my employer. My employer has now presented me with a contract that stipulates I will have to pay back the course fees should I leave the company or drop out of college.


    Is this fair? I was never informed about paying back course fees until now.


    Any help would be great


    Thank you
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 9th Feb 18, 5:56 PM
    • 5,920 Posts
    • 12,578 Thanks
    marliepanda
    • #3
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:56 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:56 PM
    If you, sorry, Betty signed it, then one of you has signed and agreed to it.

    The company invested in your future hoping they would benefit from it, and now they will not.
    • bigisi
    • By bigisi 9th Feb 18, 5:59 PM
    • 238 Posts
    • 413 Thanks
    bigisi
    • #4
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:59 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:59 PM
    Presumably the answers to your previous thread would help "Betty" too.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5615239
    Originally posted by nicechap
    Facepalm
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 9th Feb 18, 6:17 PM
    • 4,678 Posts
    • 7,901 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #5
    • 9th Feb 18, 6:17 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Feb 18, 6:17 PM
    Presumably the answers to your previous thread would help "Betty" too.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5615239
    Originally posted by nicechap
    And, surprisingly, it's a year later!

    OP, no, of course you haven't signed your life away. You have loads of years left, and unless your employer actually is the Devil, then I'm sure the employer just wants their money back. If they want their money back, fair enough. If they want your life, I'm afraid employment tribunals have no jurusdiction over the Devil (or God)!
    • Ja7188
    • By Ja7188 9th Feb 18, 6:52 PM
    • 171 Posts
    • 178 Thanks
    Ja7188
    • #6
    • 9th Feb 18, 6:52 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Feb 18, 6:52 PM
    You might want to directly ask how much you'll be liable for if you do leave - it may not be as high as you fear (see the comments around the sliding scale in the other thread) - although this would have the downside of making the company aware that you're thinking about quitting, which isn't ideal.

    If it's more than you can/ will swallow, perhaps you could go part-time (which should not trigger the repayment clause) with a view to leaving completely at a later date?
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 9th Feb 18, 8:22 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    • #7
    • 9th Feb 18, 8:22 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Feb 18, 8:22 PM
    Sorry about that I forgot I posted, as you may guess Betty and I have been a bit busy.

    The amount is around £5000 which I cannot afford to pay back in one sum. Is it normal for companies to accept this back in installments? What happens if we cant agree terms? These are not part of the document I signed.

    Thanks
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 9th Feb 18, 8:34 PM
    • 15,785 Posts
    • 21,687 Thanks
    pinkshoes
    • #8
    • 9th Feb 18, 8:34 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Feb 18, 8:34 PM
    Sorry about that I forgot I posted, as you may guess Betty and I have been a bit busy.

    The amount is around £5000 which I cannot afford to pay back in one sum. Is it normal for companies to accept this back in installments? What happens if we cant agree terms? These are not part of the document I signed.

    Thanks
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    Why not just ask?

    Or why not return to work for a while? What does the contract say about the time period you need to stay with the company to not have to pay it back?

    Did you complete the training?
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 9th Feb 18, 9:40 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    • #9
    • 9th Feb 18, 9:40 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Feb 18, 9:40 PM
    The reason why I posted is to gain a better understanding on what is normal, before I mention it to my employer, this must not be a unique situation

    I cannot return to work because I cannot afford childcare. I was relying on a family member for childcare but that situation has now changed, catch 22 I suppose. Time periods will not apply because I have only completed 6 months of the 3 year course (college).
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 9th Feb 18, 9:44 PM
    • 1,201 Posts
    • 2,499 Thanks
    nicechap
    The reason why I posted is to gain a better understanding on what is normal, before I mention it to my employer, this must not be a unique situation

    I cannot return to work because I cannot afford childcare. I was relying on a family member for childcare but that situation has now changed, catch 22 I suppose. Time periods will not apply because I have only completed 6 months of the 3 year course (college).
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    I suspect a lot will depend on what you actually signed last year.

    Do you think its fair your employer invested £5k in you for a course you only did a bit of?
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 9th Feb 18, 9:54 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    Double post
    Last edited by charlie 2015; 09-02-2018 at 9:57 PM.
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 9th Feb 18, 9:56 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    Where have I said I do not intend to pay it back? I have asked if its normal for companies to accept small monthly installments. Please read my posts properly.
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 9th Feb 18, 10:03 PM
    • 1,201 Posts
    • 2,499 Thanks
    nicechap
    Where have I said I do not intend to pay it back? I have asked if its normal for companies to accept small monthly installments. Please read my posts properly.
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    Please read my posts properly too.

    I suspect a lot will depend on what you actually signed last year.

    Hi there,

    I am posting this on behalf of a friend, lets call her Betty.
    ........

    Has her employer acted lawfully here? Has she signed her life away with this document?
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    Last edited by nicechap; 09-02-2018 at 10:06 PM. Reason: EDITED for clarity
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 9th Feb 18, 10:04 PM
    • 4,678 Posts
    • 7,901 Thanks
    sangie595
    Where have I said I do not intend to pay it back? I have asked if its normal for companies to accept small monthly installments. Please read my posts properly.
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    I'm pretty sure nobody said that. In fact, the only person who implied that was you. So people were reading your posts properly, and it would be handy if you read theirs properly.

    Is it normal that companies accept small monthly payments? Some do, some don't, and it depends what you mean by "small". If you can't agree terms then they are free to sue you in court, which will mean that they will add costs to your debt to them, should they win that case. Or they could sell the debt to collectors. It is entirely up to them what they do with a debt. But I also wouldn't be expecting a good reference. Ever.

    Why not just ask?
    • DCFC79
    • By DCFC79 9th Feb 18, 10:11 PM
    • 31,937 Posts
    • 20,111 Thanks
    DCFC79
    Where have I said I do not intend to pay it back? I have asked if its normal for companies to accept small monthly installments. Please read my posts properly.
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    Each firm will vary, no harm in asking is there.
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 9th Feb 18, 10:44 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    I am sorry but nicechap did imply I would not pay it back by what he said. Sangie, I have not accused you or anyone else of this, there is no need for you to involve yourself.

    I know I can ask but I have come here for advice and experiences before I ask my employer.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 9th Feb 18, 11:00 PM
    • 4,678 Posts
    • 7,901 Thanks
    sangie595
    I am sorry but nicechap did imply I would not pay it back by what he said. Sangie, I have not accused you or anyone else of this, there is no need for you to involve yourself.
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    They implied no such thing. They asked a question. Do you think it is fair for you to allow your employer to invest a lot of money in your training for a course you only did a bit of? The answer to that is pretty relevant.

    I'll involve myself in what I want, thank you. Especially since your post was not directed at anyone at all, and there was nobody doing what you accused all of us of.
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 10th Feb 18, 8:48 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    I will bite one last time and then I wont be using these forums again. More hassle than its worth!

    Nicechap asked if its fair the company invest 5k in training. Previous to his comment I said I am willing to pay the 5k back albeit not all at once. If the company get their money back then I dont see how fair comes into it. Therefore, it is possible to assume "nicechap" implied i wouldnt be paying it back, or he didn't read my previous post.

    Quite common to see the full time poster gang having eachother backs.
    Last edited by charlie 2015; 10-02-2018 at 8:57 AM.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 10th Feb 18, 9:08 AM
    • 4,678 Posts
    • 7,901 Thanks
    sangie595
    I will bite one last time and then I wont be using these forums again. More hassle than its worth!

    Nicechap asked if its fair the company invest 5k im training
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    Almost. They asked if you think it's fair that the company invest £5k in training that you only did a bit of. Something that you still haven't answered. And your questions were whether the employer acted lawfully (yes), and whether you had signed your life away (no). The same answers in fact, that you had a year ago.

    You have repeatedly been asked questions which you did not answer. You forgot to mention that "Betty " had asked the same question already and been given an answer. What was the purpose of your asking the same question again now? Were you expecting a different answer?

    You can either cooperate and answer the questions, or you can threaten to leave the forum and never post again. Now do you think that the latter threat is going to get you a different answer? You've been asked what exactly you signed. You've been asked whether you have talked to your employers about any of this. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. But then why bother posting? Just to take offence at something that wasn't said?
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 10th Feb 18, 11:04 AM
    • 1,201 Posts
    • 2,499 Thanks
    nicechap
    I am sorry but nicechap did imply I would not pay it back by what he said. Sangie, I have not accused you or anyone else of this, there is no need for you to involve yourself.

    I know I can ask but I have come here for advice and experiences before I ask my employer.
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    I'm afraid you are incorrect. You cannot know what I imply. You can only infer what I meant. And its this use of the english language that lawyers will tie you in knots over, which is why I have repeatedly said your situation will depend on what you signed. You haven't shared that piece of information with us.

    And just to set your questions in context of a cross examining lawyer would do to you in court:

    You have misled us into the purpose of your enquiry, claiming it was for Betty, when it was for you. That would beg the question of your honesty in this matter.

    You claim you cannot pay it back in one go, yet knew you were liable for it from last February - what had you done to mitigate the employers losses?

    How much have you saved from your wages & maternity pay to pay back the debt?

    The first request for 'what is normal' came after you were asked what your contract says by pink shoes.

    It was after you ignored this element that I posted again about what you signed and asked if YOU thought it was fair for your employer to pay £5k for a course you did not complete. I did not ask whether you intended to pay it back.

    You've then been told by Sangie (I paraphrase) it doesn't matter what is normal for other companies, its what you signed that counts.

    If you like the idea of bailiffs turning up in a year's time to relieve you of goods worth well over £5k after court costs, then please carry on misunderstanding and misinterpreting words and see how far playing the victim gets you.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

594Posts Today

6,304Users online

Martin's Twitter