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  • FIRST POST
    • MisterMuso
    • By MisterMuso 9th Feb 18, 1:32 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 1Thanks
    MisterMuso
    Borrowing from mother in care home
    • #1
    • 9th Feb 18, 1:32 PM
    Borrowing from mother in care home 9th Feb 18 at 1:32 PM
    I have lasting POA for my mother who is in a care home due to requiring round-the-clock care. Her finances are in a good state and she has been required by the council to self-finance her care costs. Currently my mother is age 84, and her funds are likely to last her for around 10-15 years' worth of further care and spending money.

    My mother is always asking if she can help me financially, and current I am in urgent need of dental treatment which I cannot afford. Can I borrow money from my share of her finances, if I have written agreement from her and from the second beneficiary, my sister?

    I understand the council must leave £26600 of my mother's money, at which point they have to increase their support payments. So if I am borrowing an amount from my share of that, I would deduct that from this amount and wait until that point before contacting the council for additional assistance with her care.

    Is there anything legally wrong with doing this - I can't see it being legally or morally wrong, given that both my mother and sister are happy with the arrangement, and it's not going to affect either their finances or the point at which we approach the council for further assistance, if that time should arise.
    Last edited by MisterMuso; 09-02-2018 at 1:38 PM. Reason: Omitted some details
Page 1
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 10th Feb 18, 6:48 PM
    • 4,844 Posts
    • 5,391 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    • #2
    • 10th Feb 18, 6:48 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Feb 18, 6:48 PM
    As long as your mother has the metal capacity to agree to this then there is no reason why she cannot lend or gift you the money. You dont need any agreement from your sister, but you should be honest with her about this.

    Whether a gift or loan this needs to be documented.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 10th Feb 18, 7:37 PM
    • 3,983 Posts
    • 3,248 Thanks
    Yorkshireman99
    • #3
    • 10th Feb 18, 7:37 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Feb 18, 7:37 PM
    I have lasting POA for my mother who is in a care home due to requiring round-the-clock care. Her finances are in a good state and she has been required by the council to self-finance her care costs. Currently my mother is age 84, and her funds are likely to last her for around 10-15 years' worth of further care and spending money.

    My mother is always asking if she can help me financially, and current I am in urgent need of dental treatment which I cannot afford. Can I borrow money from my share of her finances, if I have written agreement from her and from the second beneficiary, my sister?

    I understand the council must leave £26600 of my mother's money, at which point they have to increase their support payments. So if I am borrowing an amount from my share of that, I would deduct that from this amount and wait until that point before contacting the council for additional assistance with her care.

    Is there anything legally wrong with doing this - I can't see it being legally or morally wrong, given that both my mother and sister are happy with the arrangement, and it's not going to affect either their finances or the point at which we approach the council for further assistance, if that time should arise.
    Originally posted by MisterMuso
    Think deprivation of assets and also the POA would not allow you to do it so you mother would have to do it herself. The LA might well not consider it reasonable expenditure.
    • troubleinparadise
    • By troubleinparadise 10th Feb 18, 7:52 PM
    • 1,013 Posts
    • 1,699 Thanks
    troubleinparadise
    • #4
    • 10th Feb 18, 7:52 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Feb 18, 7:52 PM
    Contact the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) to discuss this.

    An Attorney should be acting in the best interests of the donor; the OPG can give you guidance as to whether this is an action that you can take as Attorney.

    Your motherís assets remain hers till her death - until then it isnít anyone elseís money, whatever her Will might say.
    • tessiesmummy
    • By tessiesmummy 10th Feb 18, 8:16 PM
    • 144 Posts
    • 126 Thanks
    tessiesmummy
    • #5
    • 10th Feb 18, 8:16 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Feb 18, 8:16 PM
    doesn't appear morally wrong. if she weren't in a home she could give you what she wants no questions asked. as long as she has capacity. even if she didn't then I dont think a parent paying for their child's dental treatment is unreasonable as long as it's something she would have always agreed to at any other time.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 10th Feb 18, 9:21 PM
    • 3,983 Posts
    • 3,248 Thanks
    Yorkshireman99
    • #6
    • 10th Feb 18, 9:21 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Feb 18, 9:21 PM
    Contact the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) to discuss this.

    An Attorney should be acting in the best interests of the donor; the OPG can give you guidance as to whether this is an action that you can take as Attorney.

    Your motherís assets remain hers till her death - until then it isnít anyone elseís money, whatever her Will might say.
    Originally posted by troubleinparadise
    The OP seems to suggest that his mother still has capacity so she can do as she pleases. Ther attorney should, as you say, seek advice.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 10th Feb 18, 10:21 PM
    • 2,576 Posts
    • 6,901 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    • #7
    • 10th Feb 18, 10:21 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Feb 18, 10:21 PM
    I have lasting POA for my mother who is in a care home due to requiring round-the-clock care. Her finances are in a good state and she has been required by the council to self-finance her care costs. Currently my mother is age 84, and her funds are likely to last her for around 10-15 years' worth of further care and spending money.

    My mother is always asking if she can help me financially, and current I am in urgent need of dental treatment which I cannot afford. Can I borrow money from my share of her finances, if I have written agreement from her and from the second beneficiary, my sister?

    I understand the council must leave £26600 of my mother's money, at which point they have to increase their support payments. So if I am borrowing an amount from my share of that, I would deduct that from this amount and wait until that point before contacting the council for additional assistance with her care.

    Is there anything legally wrong with doing this - I can't see it being legally or morally wrong, given that both my mother and sister are happy with the arrangement, and it's not going to affect either their finances or the point at which we approach the council for further assistance, if that time should arise.
    Originally posted by MisterMuso

    I just want to say that you should really stop thinking of your mum's money as yours and your sister's inheritance. Especially as you are POA, its really inappropriate, you don't have a share, its all hers.

    That said, if your mother has capacity then I think paying for a daughter to have dental treatment is pretty reasonable and something lots of parents would want to help with. Presume this is NHS not inflated private costs?
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 10th Feb 18, 11:44 PM
    • 4,844 Posts
    • 5,391 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    • #8
    • 10th Feb 18, 11:44 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Feb 18, 11:44 PM
    Having sufficient assets to support 10-15 years care costs would suggest she has assets of several hundred thousand pounds, so even if she gifts this small amount of money DOA is never going to come into it.

    Perhaps the simplest thing to if she does have the mental capacity to make the decision is to use her annual exempted gift allowance to make an equal gift to each child. Thiis simplifies the task of her executors when the time comes and prevents any animosity arising between siblings.

    If on the other hand there is any question about her mental capacity, then there is no way her money can be used for anyone but her.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 11th Feb 18, 7:40 AM
    • 680 Posts
    • 907 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    • #9
    • 11th Feb 18, 7:40 AM
    • #9
    • 11th Feb 18, 7:40 AM
    I'd have though that, if your mum wrote a card/letter with a short note saying that she wishes to make these gifts, then even if you are the one to physically make the transaction on her behalf (i.e. if your doing her banking for her under your POA) then that would cover you if it was ever queried that you didn't just "help yourself" to her money.

    Surely the same would apply if she said, at Christmas, i'd like for you to arrange to give each of these people £50 as a gift.

    As others have said, surely it's all down to capacity to make that decision/request.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 11th Feb 18, 8:52 AM
    • 4,844 Posts
    • 5,391 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    I'd have though that, if your mum wrote a card/letter with a short note saying that she wishes to make these gifts, then even if you are the one to physically make the transaction on her behalf (i.e. if your doing her banking for her under your POA) then that would cover you if it was ever queried that you didn't just "help yourself" to her money.

    Surely the same would apply if she said, at Christmas, i'd like for you to arrange to give each of these people £50 as a gift.

    As others have said, surely it's all down to capacity to make that decision/request.
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    That would be a sensible idea, although things like small Christmas and birthday gifts can still be continued by anyoneís attorney if the donor had a history of making such gifts when they still had the capacity to do so. I have been doing this for my mum, who is now moving from mid to late stage dementia.

    This last Christmas was the first time she had no idea why I was getting her to put some kisses on the gift tags, or who or what these gifts were for, so I am putting a stop to these now not because of financial reasons but because what used to give her a little bit of pleasure is just now another confusing thing for her to try and grasp, and puts me through the emotional grinder.
    • MisterMuso
    • By MisterMuso 13th Feb 18, 1:35 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    MisterMuso
    If on the other hand there is any question about her mental capacity, then there is no way her money can be used for anyone but her.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling
    My mother does certainly know what is going on around her, though her memory is not as good as it was. The offers to help financially have come from her without any prompting from another person. She's always been helpful that way. As others have said, it might be a good idea to ask her to write a short note if she wishes to confirm it.
    Presume this is NHS not inflated private costs?
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    It's not NHS, but it is essential work required to restore bite function, which has been causing severe injury for some time resulting in nerve damage affecting my smile on one side. I'm told I only have a limited window of opportunity to have this remedied without further complications.
    Contact the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) to discuss this.

    An Attorney should be acting in the best interests of the donor; the OPG can give you guidance as to whether this is an action that you can take as Attorney.
    Originally posted by troubleinparadise
    I've not dealt with the OPG before, but again sounds like good advice. Thanks to everyone.
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