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    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 7th Feb 18, 5:24 AM
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    financerulez
    Adaptis Solutions Railway Byelaw s14
    • #1
    • 7th Feb 18, 5:24 AM
    Adaptis Solutions Railway Byelaw s14 7th Feb 18 at 5:24 AM
    Hi all

    I'm the keeper of a vehicle that has received an enforcement notice through the post. The company is Adaptis Solutions Ltd. Have searched the forum for them, but there's not a huge amount about them. Their website doesn't work, and they aren't on either of the BPA or IPC lists as far as I can see. They have traced me as keeper of the vehicle through the DVLA though, so I thought that meant they had to belong to one of those organisations.

    As keeper, I've received this notice asking for £60 or £100 if not paid within 14 days. Whoever drove the car that day either forgot to pay for parking through the dash app, did pay through the app and there's been a mistake in the system somewhere, or the dash app wasn't working as it often isn't. From reading the forums, it seems the reason is largely irrelevant.

    Anyway, it's an enforcement notice to the keeper, for a breach of the car park terms in accordance with Railway Byelaw s.14 Nonpayment of parking fee. Have done some reading and understand that they won't be able to enforce this as only the TOC can enforce a byelaw breach, and that must be within 6 months. With that in mind I have a few more questions:
    1. If I appeal, will Adaptis not just pass my info over to the TOC, especially if I let on that I know the law in this area?
    2. It seems to me there are a variety of data protection violations. These are well summarised here: parking cowboys .co.uk/2017-01-railway-byelaws-data-protection-act/
    3. How do the DVLA even justify releasing the information to Adaptis is the first place? DVLA must know the law, and if they know that only the TOC can enforce byelaws, why are they giving data out to non-TOC companies?

    My aim is to run down the clock on the 6 months. My first port of call seems to be to launch an appeal with Adaptis after around 25 days. I can ask for a POPLA number, but if they don't belong to either association, will they give me one? I've also heard recently POPLA have stopped hearing cases now? Surely there has to be some form of independent panel or ADR? What will my steps following an internal appeal be, if they aren't association members?

    I've read around a bit, and the newbies thread, and searched Adaptis etc, but as there's not much on them and I can't find them on the lists, and POPLA seems to be in a volatile period, would love some help and advice! Will post draft replies and timeframes on here before acting I think!

    Thanks all!
Page 2
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 7th Feb 18, 8:17 PM
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    financerulez
    Wow thanks for the quick responses guys! Will update when DVLA reply. Presumably they'll reply before the 28 day limit for appeal on my PCN? I'm intrigued as to how they're going to justify giving keeper info, considering they are on neither BPA or IPC membership list. If they used a different trade name, at least we'll find out who, but that's very dodgy requesting it through one name, and then presenting it to the keeper using another. I've not jumped the gun and read about DVLA complaints/KADOE stuff yet, but I'd hope there is some infringement there!

    You've all restored my faith re Mag Court - thank you!

    Letter says Penalty Charge Notice to Keeper, so I guess they got that right at least.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Feb 18, 8:20 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    So a 'Penalty' probably won't generate a POPLA code, but appeal as keeper anyway.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 7th Feb 18, 8:21 PM
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    Ralph-y
    to keep you entertained while you a wait / reply / move on .....

    think of this Parliament link a light entertainment

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    Ralph
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Feb 18, 8:22 PM
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    pappa golf
    dont get worried with the 28 days , if they do run with this , then after 28 it has to be passed back to ???? , (with a company number) then they have to write to you giving you XXX days , then write again threatening you giving you XXX days THEN make a big blunder and pass it to govia , who have to write to you giving you xx days


    that over 5 mths already?

    the rail co only have 6 mths to bring charges , but why?
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    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Feb 18, 8:23 PM
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    pappa golf
    So a 'Penalty' probably won't generate a POPLA code, but appeal as keeper anyway.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad

    this letter says popla code available , from whom?
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    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Feb 18, 8:25 PM
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    pappa golf
    OP , who does car park enforcement on this site?
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    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 7th Feb 18, 8:31 PM
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    financerulez
    It says POPLA because it's outdated, they even have the '15 on the bottom of the form lol. Exact wording is: If we reject your representation then we will send you information on how to appeal to the independent adjudication service: POPLA. Please see popla .co.uk for more information.

    They stated that it's a byelaw s14 claim earlier in bold though, so they just haven't bothered to update to take into account that they won't hear them anymore. Not my problem though, they've put this on their letter to me, I'll be pestering them for that info on how to appeal to POPLA.

    I'm 99% sure it's Indigo! EDIT: Indigo are on the signs for terms of use at the car park, etc, so I assume that means it's them.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Feb 18, 8:36 PM
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    pappa golf
    oh , music to our ears

    from the DVLA

    ""Indigo Parking have advised that they are not and have not for a number of months been requesting data whilst they are investigating this matter" .


    please update when you have heard from DVLA

    and perhaps appealing as per letter and asking for popla code as well , if it comes lets see who from
    Last edited by pappa golf; 07-02-2018 at 9:05 PM.
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    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Feb 18, 9:09 PM
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    pappa golf
    and perhaps appealing as per letter and asking for popla code as well , if it comes lets see who from


    indigo are dead and met do not have contract on car park
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    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 8th Feb 18, 9:39 AM
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    financerulez
    Going to do the DVLA request today - will post exact wording later on, together with washed PCN from Adaptis.

    Just to throw another spanner in the works, I was reading POFA 2012 and noticed this:

    !!!8220;keeper!!!8221; means the person by whom the vehicle is kept at the time the vehicle was parked, which in the case of a registered vehicle is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to be the registered keeper;

    I know they aren't applying on POFA, but either way, in my situation, although I'm the registered keeper, someone else actually keeps the vehicle and drives it. So re this station fine, it genuinely wasn't me driving. I may also be able to argue that I'm not the owner, although I am on the V doc (Although doesn't that say something about not being proof of ownership) as someone has made several payments to me so are half way to owning the car themselves. (A different person to who keeps and drives it at the moment.)

    Anyway is it worth me, when appealing mentioning that I am not the keeper as per that definition. It says unless the contrary can be proved, but it doesn't say who I would need to prove it to, or who I would need to tell.

    EDIT: I guess there's also the comical option that I reply on Day 25 appealing and include that as part of my appeal. After stringing them along for a while, I could in theory release the current keeper as per that definition, and they would have to do this all again, all wasting time on that 6 months?
    Last edited by financerulez; 08-02-2018 at 9:46 AM.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 8th Feb 18, 9:45 AM
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    waamo
    Not being the driver is a very powerful appeal point. IIRC byelaw 14 states it is the owner who is liable absent a driver fessing up.

    If you are neither the owner or driver it leaves them up a creek.
    This space for hire.
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 8th Feb 18, 9:48 AM
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    financerulez
    Not being the driver is a very powerful appeal point. IIRC byelaw 14 states it is the owner who is liable absent a driver fessing up.

    If you are neither the owner or driver it leaves them up a creek.
    Originally posted by waamo
    Thanks Waamo. Yeah the owner becomes liable absent the driver being known, and I am the owner on the reg document, so would be a little bit risky. Have a look at my edit suggestion on last post.
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 8th Feb 18, 9:57 AM
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    Johno100
    Thanks Waamo. Yeah the owner becomes liable absent the driver being known, and I am the owner on the reg document, so would be a little bit risky. Have a look at my edit suggestion on last post.
    Originally posted by financerulez
    No you are the Registered Keeper of the vehicle. It should say in big letters on the V5c that THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP.
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 8th Feb 18, 9:59 AM
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    financerulez
    No you are the Registered Keeper of the vehicle. It should say in big letters on the V5c that THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP.
    Originally posted by Johno100
    What is their in terms of proof of ownership? As I don't use the car, I don't have insurance docs that would state that, but I'm not sure what I would have that proves I'm not the owner. Are there not some car docs that state who owner is?
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 8th Feb 18, 10:01 AM
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    financerulez
    I'm looking for the specific part of POFA 2012 (or other legislation) that states that having an independent appeals system is a requirement of anyone who accesses DVLA info. I'm sure I read that's the case. I want to lambast the DVLA for giving my info out, knowing that this would not be the case as it's a byelaw case, and POPLA won't hear it.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 8th Feb 18, 10:02 AM
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    waamo
    What is their in terms of proof of ownership? As I don't use the car, I don't have insurance docs that would state that, but I'm not sure what I would have that proves I'm not the owner. Are there not some car docs that state who owner is?
    Originally posted by financerulez
    You do not have to prove you are not the owner. It is up to them to prove you are.
    This space for hire.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 8th Feb 18, 10:13 AM
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    pappa golf
    I'm looking for the specific part of POFA 2012 (or other legislation) that states that having an independent appeals system is a requirement of anyone who accesses DVLA info. I'm sure I read that's the case. I want to lambast the DVLA for giving my info out, knowing that this would not be the case as it's a byelaw case, and POPLA won't hear it.
    Originally posted by financerulez

    only parking companies , ie the group of companies that are in the bpa and the ips

    as stated earlier on , there are about 6 groups of people , credit , finance , insurance etc , that can get your info , however to get info for a parking offence you must be in the bpa/ipc


    unless you are called indigo and can run rings round uk goverrment and the BPA <spit>
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    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 8th Feb 18, 10:20 AM
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    Umkomaas
    I'm looking for the specific part of POFA 2012 (or other legislation) that states that having an independent appeals system is a requirement of anyone who accesses DVLA info. I'm sure I read that's the case. I want to lambast the DVLA for giving my info out, knowing that this would not be the case as it's a byelaw case, and POPLA won't hear it.
    Originally posted by financerulez
    You won’t find it in PoFA.

    More helpful might be the KADOE (Keeper of Vehicle at Date of an Event) contract between the DVLA and PPC.

    Page 77, para 2.1 (b).

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/455973/Annex_A_-_KADOE_Fee_Paying_Contract_V4.pdf

    As well as the ATA’s Code of Practice.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 8th Feb 18, 12:43 PM
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    financerulez
    Currently drafting. Interesting reading KADOE contract. This is what their purpose is listed as:

    B2. Purpose For Which Data Is Provided
    B2.1. The DVLA shall provide each requested item of Data to the Customer via the KADOE Service for the Reasonable Cause of enabling the Customer to:
    a) seek recovery of unpaid Parking Charges in accordance with the Accredited Trade Association Code of Practice, and using the procedure in Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (where the vehicle was parked on private land in England or Wales on a particular date); and
    b) otherwise seek recovery from a driver of unpaid Parking Charges in accordance with the Accredited Trade Association Code of Practice (where the vehicle was parked on private land in Scotland or Northern Ireland by that driver on a particular date, or where the Customer has chosen not to pursue, or is not in a position to pursue the vehicle keeper by utilising conditions in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012).

    Note both use the terms Parking Charges, capitalised to refer back to their definitions. This is defined as:

    “Parking Charge” means:

    (a) a sum in the nature of a fee or charge, arising under the terms of a contract (including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the land) between:
    the driver and the owner or occupier of the land; or
    a person authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land; and
    (b) a sum in the nature of damages arising as a result of trespass or other tort committed by parking the vehicle on land, provided that adequate notice of the sum was given to the driver of the vehicle (when the vehicle was parked on the land).


    Tell me where enforcement of byelaws is in that definition of a Parking Charge? There isn't even a mention of the word penalty. In terms of the "a person authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land", this still needs to be read with the preceding point which again refers to a contract that has already arisen. It also says enter into a contract with the driver, information they do not have and will not be able to get. Could they argue that a contract is formed when parking on the Railway land, in addition to the byelaws applying? This all looks very dodgy to me, maybe the DVLA are breaking their own KADOE contract?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 8th Feb 18, 1:02 PM
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    pappa golf
    Currently drafting. Interesting reading KADOE contract. This is what their purpose is listed as:

    B2. Purpose For Which Data Is Provided
    B2.1. The DVLA shall provide each requested item of Data to the Customer via the KADOE Service for the Reasonable Cause of enabling the Customer to:
    a) seek recovery of unpaid Parking Charges in accordance with the Accredited Trade Association Code of Practice, and using the procedure in Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (where the vehicle was parked on private land in England or Wales on a particular date); and
    b) otherwise seek recovery from a driver of unpaid Parking Charges in accordance with the Accredited Trade Association Code of Practice (where the vehicle was parked on private land in Scotland or Northern Ireland by that driver on a particular date, or where the Customer has chosen not to pursue, or is not in a position to pursue the vehicle keeper by utilising conditions in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012).

    Note both use the terms Parking Charges, capitalised to refer back to their definitions. This is defined as:

    !!!8220;Parking Charge!!!8221; means:

    (a) a sum in the nature of a fee or charge, arising under the terms of a contract (including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the land) between:
    the driver and the owner or occupier of the land; or
    a person authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land; and
    (b) a sum in the nature of damages arising as a result of trespass or other tort committed by parking the vehicle on land, provided that adequate notice of the sum was given to the driver of the vehicle (when the vehicle was parked on the land).


    Tell me where enforcement of byelaws is in that definition of a Parking Charge? There isn't even a mention of the word penalty. In terms of the "a person authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land", this still needs to be read with the preceding point which again refers to a contract that has already arisen. It also says enter into a contract with the driver, information they do not have and will not be able to get. Could they argue that a contract is formed when parking on the Railway land, in addition to the byelaws applying? This all looks very dodgy to me, maybe the DVLA are breaking their own KADOE contract?
    Originally posted by financerulez

    a) seek recovery of unpaid Parking Charges in accordance with the Accredited Trade Association Code of Practice, and using the procedure in Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (where the vehicle was parked on private land in England or Wales on a particular date);



    22.12 If you reject an appeal you must:
    !!!8226; tell the motorist how to make an appeal to IAS. This
    includes providing a template !!!8216;notice of appeal!!!8217; form
    or a link to the appropriate website for lodging an
    appeal and a valid 10-digit verification code. Even if
    the verification code is automatically printed on an
    enclosed appeal form, it must still be in a prominent
    position on the first page of the rejection letter.
    !!!8226; give the motorist a reasonable amount of time to pay
    the charge before restarting the collection process.
    We recommend that you allow at least 35 days from
    the date you rejected the challenge

    with the threat of

    Non-compliance with the Code will be dealt with and
    monitored through a scheme of sanctions. We will
    issue sanction points depending on the severity of the
    non-compliance. If you reach twelve points on your
    !!!8216;membership licence!!!8217; in any twelve month period, we may
    refer you to the BPA Council for disciplinary action. The
    referral may result in your membership with the AOS and
    the BPA being suspended or terminated.

    and

    If we find there has been a failure to comply with the
    Code, either during a complaint investigation or a
    compliance audit, you must make appropriate changes to
    your business operation to bring it into compliance. We
    will write to you asking for the changes to be made. This
    will be a formal request and we will give you a timescale
    for you to make the changes and send us evidence that
    you have done this. Depending on the nature and severity
    of the alleged Code breach, we may issue suspended
    Sanction Points and/or a formal letter of censure

    there is your code of practice , clearly stating popla must be given

    how can companies that are bpa use kodoe and not follow code of practice


    and in your case , how can a non bpa/ipc company get info for a PARKING offence?
    Last edited by pappa golf; 08-02-2018 at 1:12 PM.
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