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  • FIRST POST
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 6th Feb 18, 10:29 PM
    • 137Posts
    • 17Thanks
    palasmy
    Burnt clutch - hire vehicle
    • #1
    • 6th Feb 18, 10:29 PM
    Burnt clutch - hire vehicle 6th Feb 18 at 10:29 PM
    Hi

    I had recently rented a Talento (10 seater) from Green motion and I'm now being charged 400 + 2200 pounds for a windscreen damage and a burnt clutch.

    Basically, I rented the vehicle on a friday night from Gatwick, the vehicle was shown as fit for renting with no issues in the standard forms that they generate for their fleet when they rent them out. But they said since it was dark to closely examine anything in detail if I find any significant damage, I should be reporting it the next day before 10 am. I drove the vehicle from Gatwick to Tonbridge (32 miles), admittedly there wasn't any smell in the vehicle at that time. The next day morning I again drove the vehicle back to Crawley (nearly same distance), but on the way back there was a strong smell in the vehicle. Dismissing it for some outside roadworks (happening at that time), managed to return to tonbridge. However, that afternoon when I took the vehicle out the smell was again there, which is when I felt there was something not right. Then it was reported to the Assistance people, the guys after doing some checks and test drives commented it definitely smells like clutch but there appears to be no issues with the mechanics as it drives fine.
    However, I insisted for a replacement vehicle and green motion after checking the reports from the roadside assistance company agreed to replace it with an another talento that same night.
    When I was there to pick up my replacement vehicle, the people on duty initially said the only Talento that they had, had a windscreen damage to it and so it can't be rented out. But then after few minutes, they came back to me and said actually the damaged vehicle was already sent out to garage and the vehicle they had was fit for renting. In a desperate need for vehicle it never struck me to double check the windscreen at that hour. But then when I returned the vehicle on Monday night, the guy who checked the vehicle claimed that the windscreen has been damaged during my renting. And it was so obvious that the way he checked that spot seemed so artificial, one the damage was in a place that even a normal check wouldn't have shown it as it was right beneath the wiper on the black band of the windscreen almost at the meeting point with the bonnet and two, his body language was so obvious that he was going to find something. Apparently, it turns out that he was the person to check this vehicle after it was returned from previous hire. So, the possibility that he could have missed this the last time and now to save himself from the trouble tries to put it on my head.

    I'm now completely lost with amount that I have been asked to pay and also don't know how to dispute this claim as I genuinely feel both the damages aren't due to me. I have had a UK license for 10 years and strongly feel that the clutch was probably already worn out and I was really unlucky that it burnt out during my hire.

    And the windscreen damage clearly appears like a preplanned event given the conversations I had during the vehicle replacement time.

    Greenmotion have sent me the following mail about the clutch and have already charged me for the windscreen.

    Would really appreciate people's suggestions and comments on this issue and on how I could go about this whole incident.

    "Thank you for your emails. Firstly please accept my apologies for the delay in coming back to you. The reason for this was as diuscussed on the phone previously a few parts needed for the repairs were on back order. Now that the repairs have been completed we are able to submit our final outlay to you for the clutch that was burnt whilst in your possession.

    Whilst I appreciate charging for items such as a clutch replacement is far from an ideal way to end of hire, we do on occasions need to do this. In order to avoid any non-expert opinion, I have asked a number of vehicle technicians for their view. You can obviously do the same. If a clutch was to fail due to general wear and tear, both sides of the clutch plate would wear away at the same or a similar rate. As you can see from the attachments this is not the case.

    Once again, while I do appreciate that this is not an easy thing to accept, it is a reasonably simple thing for us to prove. In the opinion of the repair agents and other people that we have spoken to, the speed at which the failure occurred and the nature of the wear to the clutch parts suggests damage that occurred swiftly (i.e. not over thousands of miles) and as a result of the user at the time. Therefore based on this opinion, we are looking to you for the costs incurred for the damage to the clutch.

    In order to make payment please go to www.glir.co.uk. The amount due is shown below. You also have the invoice fully declaring the main costs that we incurred. I hope this helps and I look forward to hearing from you shortly.
    "

    I have the photos of the clutch that green motion has sent me but I couldn't attach it here, but if anyone has such technical / mechanical expertise on this then please let me know I can email them to you for reference.

    Really sad and totally lost...

    Thanks all for your help
    P
Page 7
    • oldagetraveller
    • By oldagetraveller 6th May 18, 3:14 PM
    • 3,095 Posts
    • 1,607 Thanks
    oldagetraveller

    Also, the can't seem to spell judgment
    Originally posted by debtdebt
    Not necessarily.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/judgement
    Did you hear about the politician who had a backside transplant? It rejected him.
    • debtdebt
    • By debtdebt 6th May 18, 6:41 PM
    • 449 Posts
    • 295 Thanks
    debtdebt
    Taken from your own link:

    "However, the spelling judgment is conventional in legal contexts"

    Thank you for backing up my own argument.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 7th May 18, 7:05 AM
    • 13,534 Posts
    • 8,596 Thanks
    arcon5
    OP, don't enter into any more negotiation with them.

    "Warrens and Co Solicitors". written in that specific spelling don't even exist if you google them. Also, the can't seem to spell judgment and furthermore it's called the Small Claims Track not the Small Claims System.

    If I were you, I'd send one final email or letter stating that your address for service of legal documents is whatever it is and leave it at that.

    If you need any help if they do issue proceedings (I doubt they will), I will help you with defending the process. (Former Defendant civil Solicitor)
    Originally posted by debtdebt
    Well actually there are several tracks within the small claims system. The track is determined by the courts not the individual. So using the terminology small claims system is more appropriate than saying small claims track.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 7th May 18, 11:25 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    OP, don't enter into any more negotiation with them.

    "Warrens and Co Solicitors". written in that specific spelling don't even exist if you google them. Also, the can't seem to spell judgment and furthermore it's called the Small Claims Track not the Small Claims System.

    If I were you, I'd send one final email or letter stating that your address for service of legal documents is whatever it is and leave it at that.

    If you need any help if they do issue proceedings (I doubt they will), I will help you with defending the process. (Former Defendant civil Solicitor)
    Originally posted by debtdebt
    Thanks debtdebt really appreciate that gesture..
    • debtdebt
    • By debtdebt 7th May 18, 1:42 PM
    • 449 Posts
    • 295 Thanks
    debtdebt
    Well actually there are several tracks within the small claims system. The track is determined by the courts not the individual. So using the terminology small claims system is more appropriate than saying small claims track.
    Originally posted by arcon5
    Nobody in ththe legal world uses the term “Small claims system” it’s always “track” alongside fast track and multi track. Do you know of anyone using the term fast system and multi system?

    That coupled with the fact that they spell judgment with two “e”s seems to suggest the person writing the email doesn’t have much legal experience.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 10th May 18, 2:18 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Hello All

    Have received the formal LBA from Warren Solicitors via email today..

    Isn't it not appropriate for them to have send this through normal mail to my home address??

    http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/73.../LBA_Warren.PNG

    Thanks
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 10th May 18, 3:44 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Just in case filehosting is annoying to register, have the alternative below,

    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=20ixvz9&s=9
    • Ectophile
    • By Ectophile 10th May 18, 9:45 PM
    • 3,121 Posts
    • 1,991 Thanks
    Ectophile
    It's entirely appropriate to send it by normal mail - in fact many people on this forum advise it.


    If it had been a signed for delivery, you could have refused to sign for it, and asked the postman/woman to take it away again.


    By sending it normal mail, all they need to do is get proof of posting, and it's assumed to be delivered after one full working day.
    If it sticks, force it.
    If it breaks, well it wasn't working right anyway.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 10th May 18, 10:37 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    It's entirely appropriate to send it by normal mail - in fact many people on this forum advise it.


    If it had been a signed for delivery, you could have refused to sign for it, and asked the postman/woman to take it away again.


    By sending it normal mail, all they need to do is get proof of posting, and it's assumed to be delivered after one full working day.
    Originally posted by Ectophile
    Ectophile I meant they had sent this through email, and I was wondering how would they even know if I had seen it or has it been trashed into spam straight away..
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 10th May 18, 10:39 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Just another update, I had received another email from the same person few hours ago, asking me to ignore the previous mail that contained the LBA as an attachement!!

    Wonder what is going on here...

    "Dear Sirs



    Please disregard the attached letter which was sent in error.



    Kind regards.

    Maria
    "
    • debtdebt
    • By debtdebt 11th May 18, 1:18 AM
    • 449 Posts
    • 295 Thanks
    debtdebt
    Tell them you don!!!8217;t accept service by email.

    Hold your nerve OP. Don!!!8217;t worry if they do issue proceedings. Act swiftly if they do though and keep us updated.
    • Ectophile
    • By Ectophile 11th May 18, 10:53 PM
    • 3,121 Posts
    • 1,991 Thanks
    Ectophile
    Ectophile I meant they had sent this through email, and I was wondering how would they even know if I had seen it or has it been trashed into spam straight away..
    Originally posted by palasmy

    OK, scrub that previous answer then.


    It does seem a bit weird to use email, as there's no real proof of delivery, or assumption under the Interpretations Act. Maybe that's why they have revoked it.


    But it is just a letter. It looks good when you go to court to show that you have given the defendant fair chance to pay.
    If it sticks, force it.
    If it breaks, well it wasn't working right anyway.
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 12th May 18, 5:09 AM
    • 4,724 Posts
    • 6,199 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    If it did come from a solicitors it looks like a bog standard LBC, Greenmotion must issue these quite often if you read about them they seem very keen to claim for damage. The claim would be viable if you had caused provable damage. As it is in their terms and conditions that damaged caused is to be paid for.

    However in your position the damage would be impossible to prove it was down to you. The problem with any wear and tear part on a vehicle for a claim to be made is very difficult you have to prove mechanical failure, they have to prove user abuse, or it simply wore out.

    Without a expert report on the whole clutch system they can not prove anything. All they have sent you is a picture of one side of the pressure plate and one of one side of the friction plate. Both look as if they have been washed, neither looks excessively worn, the pressure plate is not discolored, or showing signs of picking up. The friction plate still has a decent quantity of friction material, the clearance/cooling grooves are still across the whole face and look to have a decent depth.

    To make a valid claim they would need more then this, was the mileage within the warranty period? What part of the clutch was damaged? Picture of the bell housing and engine block to rule out oil contamination, proof the release bearing or hydraulics were not faulty, picture and report of the flywheel, pressure plate, and friction plate.

    Of course another thing is they should have allowed you or offered you a chance to have your own report done on the clutch.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 12th May 18, 6:59 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    I received the same letter by Royal Mail yesterday.

    The letter says 14 days to respond. Should I draft a letter stating my stand that I need more evidence and refer to the pre-action protocol compliance?
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 12th May 18, 7:01 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    If it did come from a solicitors it looks like a bog standard LBC, Greenmotion must issue these quite often if you read about them they seem very keen to claim for damage. The claim would be viable if you had caused provable damage. As it is in their terms and conditions that damaged caused is to be paid for.

    However in your position the damage would be impossible to prove it was down to you. The problem with any wear and tear part on a vehicle for a claim to be made is very difficult you have to prove mechanical failure, they have to prove user abuse, or it simply wore out.

    Without a expert report on the whole clutch system they can not prove anything. All they have sent you is a picture of one side of the pressure plate and one of one side of the friction plate. Both look as if they have been washed, neither looks excessively worn, the pressure plate is not discolored, or showing signs of picking up. The friction plate still has a decent quantity of friction material, the clearance/cooling grooves are still across the whole face and look to have a decent depth.

    To make a valid claim they would need more then this, was the mileage within the warranty period? What part of the clutch was damaged? Picture of the bell housing and engine block to rule out oil contamination, proof the release bearing or hydraulics were not faulty, picture and report of the flywheel, pressure plate, and friction plate.

    Of course another thing is they should have allowed you or offered you a chance to have your own report done on the clutch.
    Originally posted by esmerobbo
    With so much stacked against them, I'm surprised that they are volunteering for a legal route..
    • atrixblue.-MFR-.
    • By atrixblue.-MFR-. 12th May 18, 12:15 PM
    • 6,548 Posts
    • 4,537 Thanks
    atrixblue.-MFR-.
    I received the same letter by Royal Mail yesterday.

    The letter says 14 days to respond. Should I draft a letter stating my stand that I need more evidence and refer to the pre-action protocol compliance?
    Originally posted by palasmy
    Don't point out their mistake of non compliance to protocol you let the courts know that they have made the error once you receive service from the small claims track, it will be upto the court to then decide whether the claim is valid or not.


    Just write back (signed for delivery) that you dispute the claim in its entirety. its upto them then to follow up with court action or go away and cry in corner of the room realising you wont fold to their demands and they wont get their money.
    Last edited by atrixblue.-MFR-.; 12-05-2018 at 12:18 PM.
    "We only have one world, But we live in different worlds"- Mark Knopfler Brothers in arms, Miss you gramps.
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 12th May 18, 1:49 PM
    • 4,724 Posts
    • 6,199 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    With so much stacked against them, I'm surprised that they are volunteering for a legal route..
    Originally posted by palasmy
    It has cost them so far the price of a letter, if you fold it is happy days for the price of said letter.

    They would need to do a lot more to prove their case, they are hoping you will bottle it.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 12th May 18, 3:45 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Frankly I didn't know what to write apart from saying simply I dispute the claim. Have put together few words as below,

    "I dispute this claim in its entirety.

    And I still am waiting for the evidences to prove that the damage to clutch was caused by me. Until today I haven't received anything in this regard apart from either emails asking me to pay or legal threats.

    On a separate note,
    GM hasn't refunded the outstanding amount of 59.22 from the Windscreen damage claim (Please refer to the email dated 04/04/2018 from GM showing the refund breakdown in their invoice.
    "

    Appreciate your comments / thoughts
    • Zandoni
    • By Zandoni 12th May 18, 5:01 PM
    • 2,792 Posts
    • 1,488 Thanks
    Zandoni
    Frankly I didn't know what to write apart from saying simply I dispute the claim. Have put together few words as below,

    "I dispute this claim in its entirety.

    And I still am waiting for the evidences to prove that the damage to clutch was caused by me. Until today I haven't received anything in this regard apart from either emails asking me to pay or legal threats.

    On a separate note,
    GM hasn't refunded the outstanding amount of 59.22 from the Windscreen damage claim (Please refer to the email dated 04/04/2018 from GM showing the refund breakdown in their invoice.
    "

    Appreciate your comments / thoughts
    Originally posted by palasmy
    I think it would be best just to tell them that you dispute the claim and will look forward to the court case.

    The lack of evidence would be best brought up in court, if it gets there.
    • atrixblue.-MFR-.
    • By atrixblue.-MFR-. 12th May 18, 7:09 PM
    • 6,548 Posts
    • 4,537 Thanks
    atrixblue.-MFR-.
    Frankly I didn't know what to write apart from saying simply I dispute the claim. Have put together few words as below,

    "I dispute this claim in its entirety.

    And I still am waiting for the evidences to prove that the damage to clutch was caused by me. Until today I haven't received anything in this regard apart from either emails asking me to pay or legal threats.

    On a separate note,
    GM hasn't refunded the outstanding amount of 59.22 from the Windscreen damage claim (Please refer to the email dated 04/04/2018 from GM showing the refund breakdown in their invoice.
    "

    Appreciate your comments / thoughts
    Originally posted by palasmy

    At this point you merely tell them "thank you for your letter dated XYZ REF:XYZ, I Dispute this claim in its entirety.


    Regards.


    Don't go asking for things you've asked for previously. Don't elaborate on why you dispute it.
    "We only have one world, But we live in different worlds"- Mark Knopfler Brothers in arms, Miss you gramps.
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