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  • FIRST POST
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 6th Feb 18, 10:29 PM
    • 172Posts
    • 22Thanks
    palasmy
    Burnt clutch - hire vehicle
    • #1
    • 6th Feb 18, 10:29 PM
    Burnt clutch - hire vehicle 6th Feb 18 at 10:29 PM
    Hi

    I had recently rented a Talento (10 seater) from Green motion and I'm now being charged 400 + 2200 pounds for a windscreen damage and a burnt clutch.

    Basically, I rented the vehicle on a friday night from Gatwick, the vehicle was shown as fit for renting with no issues in the standard forms that they generate for their fleet when they rent them out. But they said since it was dark to closely examine anything in detail if I find any significant damage, I should be reporting it the next day before 10 am. I drove the vehicle from Gatwick to Tonbridge (32 miles), admittedly there wasn't any smell in the vehicle at that time. The next day morning I again drove the vehicle back to Crawley (nearly same distance), but on the way back there was a strong smell in the vehicle. Dismissing it for some outside roadworks (happening at that time), managed to return to tonbridge. However, that afternoon when I took the vehicle out the smell was again there, which is when I felt there was something not right. Then it was reported to the Assistance people, the guys after doing some checks and test drives commented it definitely smells like clutch but there appears to be no issues with the mechanics as it drives fine.
    However, I insisted for a replacement vehicle and green motion after checking the reports from the roadside assistance company agreed to replace it with an another talento that same night.
    When I was there to pick up my replacement vehicle, the people on duty initially said the only Talento that they had, had a windscreen damage to it and so it can't be rented out. But then after few minutes, they came back to me and said actually the damaged vehicle was already sent out to garage and the vehicle they had was fit for renting. In a desperate need for vehicle it never struck me to double check the windscreen at that hour. But then when I returned the vehicle on Monday night, the guy who checked the vehicle claimed that the windscreen has been damaged during my renting. And it was so obvious that the way he checked that spot seemed so artificial, one the damage was in a place that even a normal check wouldn't have shown it as it was right beneath the wiper on the black band of the windscreen almost at the meeting point with the bonnet and two, his body language was so obvious that he was going to find something. Apparently, it turns out that he was the person to check this vehicle after it was returned from previous hire. So, the possibility that he could have missed this the last time and now to save himself from the trouble tries to put it on my head.

    I'm now completely lost with amount that I have been asked to pay and also don't know how to dispute this claim as I genuinely feel both the damages aren't due to me. I have had a UK license for 10 years and strongly feel that the clutch was probably already worn out and I was really unlucky that it burnt out during my hire.

    And the windscreen damage clearly appears like a preplanned event given the conversations I had during the vehicle replacement time.

    Greenmotion have sent me the following mail about the clutch and have already charged me for the windscreen.

    Would really appreciate people's suggestions and comments on this issue and on how I could go about this whole incident.

    "Thank you for your emails. Firstly please accept my apologies for the delay in coming back to you. The reason for this was as diuscussed on the phone previously a few parts needed for the repairs were on back order. Now that the repairs have been completed we are able to submit our final outlay to you for the clutch that was burnt whilst in your possession.

    Whilst I appreciate charging for items such as a clutch replacement is far from an ideal way to end of hire, we do on occasions need to do this. In order to avoid any non-expert opinion, I have asked a number of vehicle technicians for their view. You can obviously do the same. If a clutch was to fail due to general wear and tear, both sides of the clutch plate would wear away at the same or a similar rate. As you can see from the attachments this is not the case.

    Once again, while I do appreciate that this is not an easy thing to accept, it is a reasonably simple thing for us to prove. In the opinion of the repair agents and other people that we have spoken to, the speed at which the failure occurred and the nature of the wear to the clutch parts suggests damage that occurred swiftly (i.e. not over thousands of miles) and as a result of the user at the time. Therefore based on this opinion, we are looking to you for the costs incurred for the damage to the clutch.

    In order to make payment please go to www.glir.co.uk. The amount due is shown below. You also have the invoice fully declaring the main costs that we incurred. I hope this helps and I look forward to hearing from you shortly.
    "

    I have the photos of the clutch that green motion has sent me but I couldn't attach it here, but if anyone has such technical / mechanical expertise on this then please let me know I can email them to you for reference.

    Really sad and totally lost...

    Thanks all for your help
    P
Page 6
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 17th Apr 18, 6:26 AM
    • 172 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    palasmy
    Have been advised in the other forums as well not to write as accepting the liability, so rephrased as below,

    "As I have already made it clear in my earlier mails to you, the alleged clutch damage was an existing defect in the vehicle that I hired, which GM is attempting to charge me. As directed by the pre-action protocols, in order to establish both parties position, you will be required to first present your case to me with enough details than just simply asking me to pay."
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 17th Apr 18, 10:27 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    palasmy
    The reply for my above mail was pretty much instant!!

    "Thank you for coming back to me. The next email will have the information you require.

    kind regards"
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 18th Apr 18, 5:22 AM
    • 4,732 Posts
    • 6,209 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    Be interesting to see what they come back with?
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 19th Apr 18, 4:46 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    palasmy
    I have received the below mail today afternoon. The mail appears to have been from a different person and the amount has been decreased from 2169 to 1808.. Does this all mean that internally GM has escalated the issue??

    "First Notice Of Costs - LETTER BEFORE ACTIONDear Mr XXXXX

    Further to rental agreement number RGW99451 we are writing to advise that we appear to still have an outstanding balance on your account. The details are shown below:


    RA/Invoice NumberInvoice ReasonTotal OutstandingRGW99451DAMAGE1808.1The vehicle was hired from Green Motion Gatwick Airport. If you require any more information then please contact us urgently.
    THIS PAYMENT IS DUE IMMEDIATELY
    In the case of debts relating to penalty charge notices or similar traffic offences, where you have three or more unpaid notices, then this is advance, written confirmation that your details will automatically be added to the RISC database. This may effect your ability to hire cars in the the UK and Europe in the future.
    HOW TO PAY
    In order to make a secure online payment please visit www.glir.co.uk and click on 'Make A Payment' and follow the instructions. Once full payment is received then we will cancel all future recovery action. In the event that no payment is made then we may proceed by issuing court proceedings without any further notice.
    Yours sincerely
    Elysia Chapman
    Customer Services"
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 27th Apr 18, 6:15 AM
    • 172 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    palasmy
    Hello All, I received the below letter today, presumably this seems like they are following some legal compliance to issue me sequence of letters???

    "Second Notice Of Costs - LETTER BEFORE ACTION
    Dear XXXXXX

    Further to our recent email we still have an outstanding balance on your account. The details are shown below:


    RA/Invoice Number Invoice Reason Total Outstanding
    RGW99451 DAMAGE 1808.1
    The vehicle was hired from Green Motion Gatwick Airport.
    "
    • snnl
    • By snnl 27th Apr 18, 10:09 AM
    • 54 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    snnl
    It would seem that way, is this all still coming from GM themselves?

    Those letters don't really seem like the contain the right information to be considered a proper LBA - it could be them just trying to scare you in to paying.

    Citizens Advice have some details on what should be in a LBA and it must comply with Pre-Action Protocol if they want to take it to court https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/going-to-court/taking-court-action/step-one-write-a-letter-before-action/

    In theory you should respond to these, even if its to dispute it. They could still take this to court so start reading up now.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 27th Apr 18, 1:27 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    palasmy
    I plan to reply as below, appreciate people's comments and thoughts.

    "
    Hello,
    I'm finding this legal threat totally unreasonable when GM's customer service agent agreed to send me all the relevant information I had requested for earlier, as per the 'Pre-Action Protocol'. Please refer to my email conversations with Sian Harding dated 17/04/2018.
    And clearly I'm in dispute of this damage claim and please can I request GM to send any form of legal notices through to my house address which is provided in my rental agreement and not by emails.
    Thanks"
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 27th Apr 18, 3:13 PM
    • 13,630 Posts
    • 8,641 Thanks
    arcon5
    Why are you even replying to them?
    • snnl
    • By snnl 27th Apr 18, 3:35 PM
    • 54 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    snnl
    arcon5, he should continue to reply - if this goes to court you want to be able to prove that you did all you could to resolve this before it got to court and why you think you should not be liable for these excessive and silly charges. It will also show the courts him actively refuting this and showing why.

    Also i find if you put up a fight and show that that you are up for this, they may back down when they realise they aren't going to get their money! Otherwise companies will go straight to court, expect you not to show up (as you've not replied) and get a CCJ against your name.

    Continue to reply and refute this charge.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 27th Apr 18, 5:47 PM
    • 13,630 Posts
    • 8,641 Thanks
    arcon5
    arcon5, he should continue to reply - if this goes to court you want to be able to prove that you did all you could to resolve this before it got to court and why you think you should not be liable for these excessive and silly charges. It will also show the courts him actively refuting this and showing why.

    Also i find if you put up a fight and show that that you are up for this, they may back down when they realise they aren't going to get their money! Otherwise companies will go straight to court, expect you not to show up (as you've not replied) and get a CCJ against your name.

    Continue to reply and refute this charge.
    Originally posted by snnl
    Right your being a tad presumptuous.

    He's already replied numerous times and clearly set out his position. His position remains unchanged. Op tried to resolve it unsuccessfully, they've reached a stalemate. There's no need to reply to every threat going round in circles ever more.

    There has been absolutely no suggestion court paperwork should be ignored. Only you have now spoke about judgement by defaults. If they want a court to resolve it they can issue a claim.

    I don't think op is liable. Only you have implied that's what I'm saying.
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 28th Apr 18, 5:56 AM
    • 4,732 Posts
    • 6,209 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    I would not bother replying anymore the OP has stated their case more then once.
    They have not come back with what the OP asked for ie: proof of the damage being caused by him. Because they cant sending repeated demands for payment is not going to change the situation.
    As for a court expecting you to try and sort it amicably, well the OP has tried that and all they do is keep sending requests for payment.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 28th Apr 18, 5:47 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    palasmy
    The below mail was suggested by a member in PePiPoo forum. Please can I have some comments, I understand replying isn't going to lead anywhere when they haven't listened to my request. However, just concerned a little on the legal compliance if at all this heads in that direction in the future...

    "Dear Sir or Madam,

    As the debt is disputed, I now invite you to comply with the pre-action protocol for debt claims, which is published at https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...debt-claims.pdf
    Should the matter come to court, and regardless of the outcome, any unreasonable failure on your part to comply with the protocol will be drawn to the attention of the court.

    Pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 6.8(a) I confirm that my address for service of the claim form and all other documents is: (insert home address here)

    I note that you have not asked, under paragraph 4.2 of Practice Direction 6A, whether I am willing to accept service by email. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not willing to accept service by fax, email, or other electronic means. This includes documents sent under the pre-action protocol.

    Please be advised that further emails or letters which amount to a bare demand for money will no longer be responded to.

    Yours sincerely
    "
    • Zandoni
    • By Zandoni 28th Apr 18, 7:03 PM
    • 2,868 Posts
    • 1,538 Thanks
    Zandoni
    The below mail was suggested by a member in PePiPoo forum. Please can I have some comments, I understand replying isn't going to lead anywhere when they haven't listened to my request. However, just concerned a little on the legal compliance if at all this heads in that direction in the future...

    "Dear Sir or Madam,

    As the debt is disputed, I now invite you to comply with the pre-action protocol for debt claims, which is published at https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...debt-claims.pdf
    Should the matter come to court, and regardless of the outcome, any unreasonable failure on your part to comply with the protocol will be drawn to the attention of the court.

    Pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 6.8(a) I confirm that my address for service of the claim form and all other documents is: (insert home address here)

    I note that you have not asked, under paragraph 4.2 of Practice Direction 6A, whether I am willing to accept service by email. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not willing to accept service by fax, email, or other electronic means. This includes documents sent under the pre-action protocol.

    Please be advised that further emails or letters which amount to a bare demand for money will no longer be responded to.

    Yours sincerely
    "
    Originally posted by palasmy
    I feel that youd be helping them take the correct action with this communication, Id just ignore them.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 28th Apr 18, 7:11 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    palasmy
    I feel that youd be helping them take the correct action with this communication, Id just ignore them.
    Originally posted by Zandoni
    Oh! whilst I admit that I never thought in that angle, a company as GM should be very familiar with such things one would think...
    • Zandoni
    • By Zandoni 28th Apr 18, 7:48 PM
    • 2,868 Posts
    • 1,538 Thanks
    Zandoni
    Oh! whilst I admit that I never thought in that angle, a company as GM should be very familiar with such things one would think...
    Originally posted by palasmy
    You dont really know, they may never go court, many people get scared and pay.
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 29th Apr 18, 3:32 AM
    • 4,732 Posts
    • 6,209 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    GM should be very familiar with such things one would think...
    Originally posted by palasmy
    I think the only thing they are familiar with is charging for unsubstantiated damage.

    You have asked the relevant question of them asking them for proof that the damage they wish to be paid for was caused by yourself.

    If they had a case that would undoubtedly been forthcoming. Yet all they keep sending is a bill.

    If you are inclined to respond simply say that all future correspondence should be in writing to your known address, and that you will not respond to anything else other then in response to expert evidence that the damage was caused by yourself, or a court claim.

    Or you could give them the same response as did Private eye in "Arkell V Pressdram".
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 29th Apr 18, 6:33 AM
    • 172 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    palasmy
    Thanks all, I think it makes sense to think that if hey are serious about the issue they wouldn't be following such cheap routes and also none of these materials can be used against me in the legal context if they choose to do it.

    Have decided to sit tight!!!

    Cheers
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 3rd May 18, 12:36 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    palasmy
    This is the mail I got today from GM. The thing to note is the last para where they talk about legal proceedings and who their solicitors are...

    Feeling a bit more nervous now, should I start gathering my documents and prepare my self for the battle..

    "We wrote to you approximately 7 and 14 days ago in relation to the outstanding balance due to Green Motion Gatwick Airport. If you have made payment to us then please ignore this email, there can be a delay between receipt of payment and the system being updated.
    The details are shown below:


    RA/Invoice NumberInvoice ReasonTotal OutstandingRGW99451DAMAGE1808.1The vehicle was hired from Green Motion Gatwick Airport.
    THIS PAYMENT IS DUE IMMEDIATELY
    The matter is now being passed to Warrens and Co Solicitors who will begin proceedings to recover this amount. If you are based in the UK then they will use the Small Claims System to apply for a County Court Judgement without further notice or warning. This may effect your ability to secure credit in the future.
    As per our previous correspondance, if you have three or more unpaid invoices then we will automatically add you onto the RISC database. In order to avoid further action we urge you to contact us immediately.
    Yours sincerely"
    • debtdebt
    • By debtdebt 6th May 18, 10:47 AM
    • 640 Posts
    • 418 Thanks
    debtdebt
    OP, don't enter into any more negotiation with them.

    "Warrens and Co Solicitors". written in that specific spelling don't even exist if you google them. Also, the can't seem to spell judgment and furthermore it's called the Small Claims Track not the Small Claims System.

    If I were you, I'd send one final email or letter stating that your address for service of legal documents is whatever it is and leave it at that.

    If you need any help if they do issue proceedings (I doubt they will), I will help you with defending the process. (Former Defendant civil Solicitor)
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 6th May 18, 1:04 PM
    • 6,016 Posts
    • 3,658 Thanks
    Nasqueron
    OP, don't enter into any more negotiation with them.

    "Warrens and Co Solicitors". written in that specific spelling don't even exist if you google them. Also, the can't seem to spell judgment and furthermore it's called the Small Claims Track not the Small Claims System.

    If I were you, I'd send one final email or letter stating that your address for service of legal documents is whatever it is and leave it at that.

    If you need any help if they do issue proceedings (I doubt they will), I will help you with defending the process. (Former Defendant civil Solicitor)
    Originally posted by debtdebt
    https://warrens.law/our-legal-team/



    Warren!!!8217;s Law and Advocacy is a trading name of Rodney Warren & Co Ltd

    Hardly be the first numpty who gets the name of their legal firm and legal terms slightly wrong when sending out letters to customers, but I'd bet it's this firm especially given they and green motion pop up together occasionally if you look on google
    Last edited by Nasqueron; 06-05-2018 at 1:08 PM.
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