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  • FIRST POST
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 6th Feb 18, 10:29 PM
    • 137Posts
    • 17Thanks
    palasmy
    Burnt clutch - hire vehicle
    • #1
    • 6th Feb 18, 10:29 PM
    Burnt clutch - hire vehicle 6th Feb 18 at 10:29 PM
    Hi

    I had recently rented a Talento (10 seater) from Green motion and I'm now being charged 400 + 2200 pounds for a windscreen damage and a burnt clutch.

    Basically, I rented the vehicle on a friday night from Gatwick, the vehicle was shown as fit for renting with no issues in the standard forms that they generate for their fleet when they rent them out. But they said since it was dark to closely examine anything in detail if I find any significant damage, I should be reporting it the next day before 10 am. I drove the vehicle from Gatwick to Tonbridge (32 miles), admittedly there wasn't any smell in the vehicle at that time. The next day morning I again drove the vehicle back to Crawley (nearly same distance), but on the way back there was a strong smell in the vehicle. Dismissing it for some outside roadworks (happening at that time), managed to return to tonbridge. However, that afternoon when I took the vehicle out the smell was again there, which is when I felt there was something not right. Then it was reported to the Assistance people, the guys after doing some checks and test drives commented it definitely smells like clutch but there appears to be no issues with the mechanics as it drives fine.
    However, I insisted for a replacement vehicle and green motion after checking the reports from the roadside assistance company agreed to replace it with an another talento that same night.
    When I was there to pick up my replacement vehicle, the people on duty initially said the only Talento that they had, had a windscreen damage to it and so it can't be rented out. But then after few minutes, they came back to me and said actually the damaged vehicle was already sent out to garage and the vehicle they had was fit for renting. In a desperate need for vehicle it never struck me to double check the windscreen at that hour. But then when I returned the vehicle on Monday night, the guy who checked the vehicle claimed that the windscreen has been damaged during my renting. And it was so obvious that the way he checked that spot seemed so artificial, one the damage was in a place that even a normal check wouldn't have shown it as it was right beneath the wiper on the black band of the windscreen almost at the meeting point with the bonnet and two, his body language was so obvious that he was going to find something. Apparently, it turns out that he was the person to check this vehicle after it was returned from previous hire. So, the possibility that he could have missed this the last time and now to save himself from the trouble tries to put it on my head.

    I'm now completely lost with amount that I have been asked to pay and also don't know how to dispute this claim as I genuinely feel both the damages aren't due to me. I have had a UK license for 10 years and strongly feel that the clutch was probably already worn out and I was really unlucky that it burnt out during my hire.

    And the windscreen damage clearly appears like a preplanned event given the conversations I had during the vehicle replacement time.

    Greenmotion have sent me the following mail about the clutch and have already charged me for the windscreen.

    Would really appreciate people's suggestions and comments on this issue and on how I could go about this whole incident.

    "Thank you for your emails. Firstly please accept my apologies for the delay in coming back to you. The reason for this was as diuscussed on the phone previously a few parts needed for the repairs were on back order. Now that the repairs have been completed we are able to submit our final outlay to you for the clutch that was burnt whilst in your possession.

    Whilst I appreciate charging for items such as a clutch replacement is far from an ideal way to end of hire, we do on occasions need to do this. In order to avoid any non-expert opinion, I have asked a number of vehicle technicians for their view. You can obviously do the same. If a clutch was to fail due to general wear and tear, both sides of the clutch plate would wear away at the same or a similar rate. As you can see from the attachments this is not the case.

    Once again, while I do appreciate that this is not an easy thing to accept, it is a reasonably simple thing for us to prove. In the opinion of the repair agents and other people that we have spoken to, the speed at which the failure occurred and the nature of the wear to the clutch parts suggests damage that occurred swiftly (i.e. not over thousands of miles) and as a result of the user at the time. Therefore based on this opinion, we are looking to you for the costs incurred for the damage to the clutch.

    In order to make payment please go to www.glir.co.uk. The amount due is shown below. You also have the invoice fully declaring the main costs that we incurred. I hope this helps and I look forward to hearing from you shortly.
    "

    I have the photos of the clutch that green motion has sent me but I couldn't attach it here, but if anyone has such technical / mechanical expertise on this then please let me know I can email them to you for reference.

    Really sad and totally lost...

    Thanks all for your help
    P
Page 4
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 3rd Mar 18, 6:08 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    It does show the thickness of the plate. You can see there's plenty of meat on it when you look at the holes where the rivets sit and the fact there are still quite deep grooves in the friction material. When its worn to the point of slipping then those grooves no longer exist and the face of the rivet is usually flush with the surface of the friction material.

    That clutch friction plate was far from worn so by my reckoning the slipping is being caused by something else which could even be something like an automatic self adjuster in the cable being at fault if its a cable operated one that uses a pawl and ratchet type of auto adjuster. It definitely has been slipping because you can see the marking on the pressure plate.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    So is it possible for the slipping to occur because of driving, i.e. misuse of clutch at such a short travel??
    • irc
    • By irc 3rd Mar 18, 6:23 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    irc
    Don't give them penny. Deny liability. Keep copies of all letters/e-mails.

    Once you make it clear you don't accept liability their only option is to take you to the small claims court.

    This involves more staff time and money (lawyer) for them which they can't claim back. So they may not take it any further.

    If they do find a local engineer who can give a written report on the likelihood you damaged the clutch in a few miles.

    There are three possible outcomes.

    1. They realise you are not roling over and give up.

    2. It goes to court (your local court) ande you win.

    3 Goes to court you lose. Worst case scenario you pay for the clutch (plus perhaps a few quid in their fees) so are no worse off.

    By the way have you asked another garage for a quote to assess if the price they are giving is a reasonable price. If it is expensive then that's another thing to dispute at court.

    If it was me I'd be going to court on principle. I've been driving 40 years and never burnt a clutch out in less than many thousands of miles.

    But it's your choice. If you fight them you need to be prepared to go to court.
    Last edited by irc; 03-03-2018 at 6:26 PM.
    • Zandoni
    • By Zandoni 3rd Mar 18, 6:58 PM
    • 2,794 Posts
    • 1,488 Thanks
    Zandoni
    It does show the thickness of the plate. You can see there's plenty of meat on it when you look at the holes where the rivets sit and the fact there are still quite deep grooves in the friction material. When its worn to the point of slipping then those grooves no longer exist and the face of the rivet is usually flush with the surface of the friction material. .
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Pretty much what I said
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 5th Mar 18, 5:52 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    This was the invoice sent to me from GM for the clutch,

    http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/727957/Repair%20-%20clutchm.pdf

    Have been advised to ask for a copy of the itemised invoice from the Garage to GM. I'm also planning to request for the rental history of that vehicle, just so it will help understand its wear and tear.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 5th Mar 18, 9:54 AM
    • 1,462 Posts
    • 1,080 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    This was the invoice sent to me from GM for the clutch,

    http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/727957/Repair%20-%20clutchm.pdf

    Have been advised to ask for a copy of the itemised invoice from the Garage to GM. I'm also planning to request for the rental history of that vehicle, just so it will help understand its wear and tear.
    Originally posted by palasmy
    The legal issue is that even if GM have suffered a loss, they are still obliged to minimise their losses. As the charges seem at odds with the actual reasonable cost of their repair, you cannot be held liable for their profligacy (or fraudulent misrepresentation) in getting the car repaired.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 8th Mar 18, 8:42 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Hello All

    Today I received an email from GM, asking about the payment for the Clutch. I responded by requesting for the Windscreen details first, the email trail below, their mail in red and my responses in blue

    "Further to our earlier email we are yet to receive a response from you. We now require payment immediately for the clutch replacement.

    "Please can I have the details of the windscreen damage before we talk about Clutch issue.

    I would like a copy of the following

    1. The internal investigation report that I was promised by GM
    2. The repair details of the windscreen
    3. The Invoice that was sent to GM by the Garage for the windscreen replacement

    Once the above is clarified we will discuss the Clutch issue.
    "

    "Thank you for your email. I have just spoken to my colleague Sian and she has confirmed that all the below documents have been sent to you by her. To confirm these are 2 separate issues and the matter regarding the clutch is long outstanding.

    We require payment for this matter before it is passed for legal proceedings
    ."

    "I have not received any of the requested documents listed below from anyone in GM. In fact if you looked at the email trail below, it should be fairly self explanatory.

    I really don't have the need to lie, plus if the said documents are already there, what is the difficulty in resending them to me now. Perhaps it was sent to the wrong address by accident. Kindly send it again.

    Thanks for your understanding...
    "


    And then after all the above exchange, the concerned person sends me an invoice (will upload once I have the file host link) for the windscreen attached to her email shown below.

    "Attached is a copy for a copy of the windscreen invoice. I can confirm that the windscreen damage, has been looked into and we believe that these charges have been processed correctly."

    All they could say about investigation is that they have processed the charges correctly !!!


    The invoice in my opinion looks so fake and probably was only made today...
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 8th Mar 18, 9:00 PM
    • 1,462 Posts
    • 1,080 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    Hello All

    Today I received an email from GM, asking about the payment for the Clutch. I responded by requesting for the Windscreen details first, the email trail below, their mail in red and my responses in blue

    "Further to our earlier email we are yet to receive a response from you. We now require payment immediately for the clutch replacement.

    "Please can I have the details of the windscreen damage before we talk about Clutch issue.

    I would like a copy of the following

    1. The internal investigation report that I was promised by GM
    2. The repair details of the windscreen
    3. The Invoice that was sent to GM by the Garage for the windscreen replacement

    Once the above is clarified we will discuss the Clutch issue.
    "

    "Thank you for your email. I have just spoken to my colleague Sian and she has confirmed that all the below documents have been sent to you by her. To confirm these are 2 separate issues and the matter regarding the clutch is long outstanding.

    We require payment for this matter before it is passed for legal proceedings
    ."

    "I have not received any of the requested documents listed below from anyone in GM. In fact if you looked at the email trail below, it should be fairly self explanatory.

    I really don't have the need to lie, plus if the said documents are already there, what is the difficulty in resending them to me now. Perhaps it was sent to the wrong address by accident. Kindly send it again.

    Thanks for your understanding...
    "


    And then after all the above exchange, the concerned person sends me an invoice (will upload once I have the file host link) for the windscreen attached to her email shown below.

    "Attached is a copy for a copy of the windscreen invoice. I can confirm that the windscreen damage, has been looked into and we believe that these charges have been processed correctly."

    All they could say about investigation is that they have processed the charges correctly !!!


    The invoice in my opinion looks so fake and probably was only made today...
    Originally posted by palasmy
    Perhaps a "call my bluff" reply to the effect of: "I do not understand why it is so difficult for your company to provide reasonable proof of your costs and that you have taken reasonable steps to minimise your alleged losses. I have no intention of paying anything without proof that the damage was not present before hire and that any charges are reasonable and reflect that you have sought to minimise any loses incurred, and that the amount you are claiming is a true reflection of your costs incurred. You will of course be required to produce this information if you seek to progress a legal claim, so you must already have this on record."
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 8th Mar 18, 9:57 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Perhaps a "call my bluff" reply to the effect of: "I do not understand why it is so difficult for your company to provide reasonable proof of your costs and that you have taken reasonable steps to minimise your alleged losses. I have no intention of paying anything without proof that the damage was not present before hire and that any charges are reasonable and reflect that you have sought to minimise any loses incurred, and that the amount you are claiming is a true reflection of your costs incurred. You will of course be required to produce this information if you seek to progress a legal claim, so you must already have this on record."
    Originally posted by IanMSpencer
    Thanks IanMSpencer. that dose make sense.

    Here is the link for the invoice..
    http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/728777/WR17XKX.jpg
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 9th Mar 18, 5:49 AM
    • 13,540 Posts
    • 8,596 Thanks
    arcon5
    If go even shorter on my response.

    Thank you for your email.

    I do not believe the damage was caused by my negligence and you have failed to demonstrate otherwise. Your evidence is inconsistent with your statement. As such I am not liable. If you disagree with this decision, please visit moneyclaim.gov.uk
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 9th Mar 18, 6:11 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    If go even shorter on my response.

    Thank you for your email.

    I do not believe the damage was caused by my negligence and you have failed to demonstrate otherwise. Your evidence is inconsistent with your statement. As such I am not liable. If you disagree with this decision, please visit moneyclaim.gov.uk
    Originally posted by arcon5
    Should I put it in such a way that both the windscreen damage and the clutch are not my fault. Although they have already charged me for the windscreen damage
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 9th Mar 18, 2:46 PM
    • 2,855 Posts
    • 2,066 Thanks
    Tarambor
    Absolutely. Let them take it to court, it would be very interesting to look at their faces as a judge gives them a right dressing down. Don't forget to counter-claim for your expenses in resolving all of this.
    • Penelopa.Pitstop
    • By Penelopa.Pitstop 9th Mar 18, 5:06 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    Penelopa.Pitstop
    Thanks IanMSpencer. that dose make sense.

    Here is the link for the invoice..
    http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/728777/WR17XKX.jpg
    Originally posted by palasmy
    Company is real: CROISSANT WINDSCREENS PARTNERSHIP and VAT is registered to them. However they don't have office or website. It would be impossible to prove if they replaced or didn't replace the windscreen.

    Didn't you mention in the first post, that you have iCarhireinsurance policy? That would cover the windscreen and you can move on to fight off the clutch.

    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 10th Mar 18, 3:10 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Company is real: CROISSANT WINDSCREENS PARTNERSHIP and VAT is registered to them. However they don't have office or website. It would be impossible to prove if they replaced or didn't replace the windscreen.

    Didn't you mention in the first post, that you have iCarhireinsurance policy? That would cover the windscreen and you can move on to fight off the clutch.
    Originally posted by Penelopa.Pitstop
    Thanks for checking this out.

    Yes I do have the insurance but then with an invoice like this I seriously doubt if they would believe or consider accepting it...
    And even if I'm able to claim back, I think it is definitely a fraud what they are trying to do!! Just desperate to take them to task...
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 10th Mar 18, 3:12 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Absolutely. Let them take it to court, it would be very interesting to look at their faces as a judge gives them a right dressing down. Don't forget to counter-claim for your expenses in resolving all of this.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    I'm honestly wishing and praying for this to happen.. more than anything I think they need to learn and not repeat this with anyone else...

    It really angers and upsets me a great deal when you think of the way they treat you despite trying to cheat..
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 10th Mar 18, 3:53 PM
    • 13,540 Posts
    • 8,596 Thanks
    arcon5
    Even if they lost in court they won't change their ways. It's one loss to probably twenty wins.
    I'd get it out of your head that you are and will punish them because the odds are they wont pursue it in court anyway, they'll eventually accept it's just general maintenance costs, part and parcel of the business their in... yet they'd still be winning as they have been paid for the windscreen.

    Claim the windscreen money from your insurer... afterall that is the whole point of buying it anyway.
    And wait for their next move with the clutch.
    • Penelopa.Pitstop
    • By Penelopa.Pitstop 10th Mar 18, 4:30 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    Penelopa.Pitstop
    I read hundreds of reviews after this thread was posted and company is mostly scamming people from abroad, as it's much easier and most of them just take it on a chin or their insurance. There were a few comments, that they withdrew their damage claim when they learned that customer is from UK. Suddenly cars weren't scratched.

    So there's a chance that they won't pursue this one, due to the hassle.

    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 10th Mar 18, 8:14 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    Even if they lost in court they won't change their ways. It's one loss to probably twenty wins.
    I'd get it out of your head that you are and will punish them because the odds are they wont pursue it in court anyway, they'll eventually accept it's just general maintenance costs, part and parcel of the business their in... yet they'd still be winning as they have been paid for the windscreen.

    Claim the windscreen money from your insurer... afterall that is the whole point of buying it anyway.
    And wait for their next move with the clutch.
    Originally posted by arcon5
    I understand, it is always a challenge as a commoner to fight an organisation. Especially when they are so immuned and confident enough to get away with it.

    They take advantage of people's circumstances to make money for no fault of the innocent customers. And the most shameful thing is, they are able to do this so conveniently at their own liberty and will...

    Personally yes it will be good if they don't pursue this legally, however for the windscreen, even if I'm able to claim I'm feeling unsatisfied that they are having the last laugh...
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 11th Mar 18, 6:06 AM
    • 13,540 Posts
    • 8,596 Thanks
    arcon5
    So are you going to file a claim against them in court for the windscreen?
    As they are unlikely to pursue the clutch. Leaves you having to prove your case and foot the bill.
    • palasmy
    • By palasmy 11th Mar 18, 6:18 AM
    • 137 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    palasmy
    So are you going to file a claim against them in court for the windscreen?
    As they are unlikely to pursue the clutch. Leaves you having to prove your case and foot the bill.
    Originally posted by arcon5
    I don't know it depends on few things, mainly how strong my evidences are against them, especially when all that matters in a court are just solid evidences. And all I have is the conversations and the way in which the return inspection was performed. Whether this is enough to build a case is my worry...

    Will wait this week to see how they progress with the whole thing.

    I will respond as you suggested and see what they say,

    "Thank you for your email.

    I do not believe the damage was caused by my negligence and you have failed to demonstrate otherwise. Your evidence is inconsistent with your statement. As such I am not liable. If you disagree with this decision, please visit moneyclaim.gov.uk"
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 11th Mar 18, 6:44 AM
    • 4,724 Posts
    • 6,199 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    They have little chance of the clutch claim, they would have to show you caused damage to the clutch, which is impossible.
    If the clutch was inside the warranty period a judge would ask why they did not seek to recover on warranty, at least the clutch would have been examined by Fiats warranty department and a concise report given.
    If the clutch was outside the warranty period, then wear and tear would be considered normal. Especially on a hire vehicle which would have many driver who would no doubt treat the clutch differently.
    The evidence they have is pictures of a clutch which could have come out of anything and the say so of someone who has they claim just sold them an expensive clutch.

    As for the screen even though you state it was already cracked, I don't think that invoice helps them as it states "large crack bottom of screen" They have not indicated any impact damage, I would argue that a crack is down to stress caused by flexing as the screen is a structural part. Again I would be asking if in warranty Fiat where not asked about it. If there was no sign of impact.

    Their reputation is not good when it comes to damage claims, they probably play a percentage game, meaning more will pay up then tell them to shove it.

    They advertise as Eco friendly they do not seem to be financially friendly.
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