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  • FIRST POST
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Feb 18, 11:12 AM
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    pappa golf
    Smart parking
    • #1
    • 6th Feb 18, 11:12 AM
    Smart parking 6th Feb 18 at 11:12 AM
    see next post
    Last edited by pappa golf; 06-02-2018 at 11:47 AM.
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Page 1
    • Big Dave88
    • By Big Dave88 6th Feb 18, 11:43 AM
    • 20 Posts
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    Big Dave88
    • #2
    • 6th Feb 18, 11:43 AM
    Smart Parking PCN
    • #2
    • 6th Feb 18, 11:43 AM
    Hi, my car was picked up by an ANPR parking camera that's recently been introduced to a local shopping car park. 2 hr max stay limit. The ANPR photos say that the vehicle was 22 mins over the time limit, and the PCN is from a company called Smart Parking.

    60 fine, payable within 14 days. After that it goes up to 100, payable within 28 days.

    The sign as you drive in is not clearly visible. The car had a passenger who has a blue badge and thus parked in one of the set aside disabled bays by the store entrance. Naturally assumed it entitled up to 3 hrs parking. Apparently not! An ANPR camera is just a dumb camera taking photos of cars entering and exiting the car park and logging the entry/exit time and isn't going to be able to distinguish who is disabled and who isn't.

    A couple of days later, a closer look at the signage was carried out and in small print at the bottom of the sign in the car park says that disabled concessions do not apply. 2 hrs max for everyone.

    There are no signs where the disable parking is indicating any restrictions.


    The sign entering the car park doesn't give you time to read it whilst negotiating the LH turn into the car park and also avoiding vehicles leaving the car park. It is also quite high up and the only way of clearly reading it is coming to a complete stop and looking up through the windscreen. The wording on the sign said "see terms and conditions on signage throughout the car park" To me the word "throughout" means in every part of, or from beginning to end of.


    This is clearly not the case as there are only 4 signs in the car park (2 pairs back to back) and are approx. 10 feet up the same poles that hold the lighting in the middle of the car park, certainly not "throughout" the car park. A person of limited mobility would find it difficult to read these signs as they are in amongst the parked cars in the middle of the car park. If say a person was in a wheel chair, I don't feel they would be able to read these signs at all.


    The blue badge holder suffers from a condition called Atrial fibrillation (among other ailments). Providing they use a mobility walker, or something else to push (eg a shopping trolley), they are generally ok and don't get out of breath quite so much, but still need to take regular stops to get their breath back.


    My question is, what would be the best way to appeal the PCN?


    Should I tackle them about the equality Act 2010?
    The BPA Code of Practice says:
    16.5 If your landowner provides a concession that allows parking for disabled people, if a vehicle displays a valid Blue Badge you must not issue it with parking charge notices.
    EDIT: BPA Code of Practice Clause 18.9 and 28.8 - So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there must be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle. Ideally this sign must be close to any parking bays set aside for disabled motorists.

    Should I tackle them about the ambiguous signage?


    Or both?


    I've had a look around the forum, and I'm normally internet savvy, but I'm still struggling to find the information I need. I've looked at the NEWBIES thread, and although I've found the default template, but I'm still unsure how to word everything.


    Your help would be very appreciated.
    Last edited by Big Dave88; 06-02-2018 at 12:36 PM.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Feb 18, 11:51 AM
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    pappa golf
    • #3
    • 6th Feb 18, 11:51 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Feb 18, 11:51 AM
    the 17 mins is very close to what would be grace periods , the entry and exit times are not the times you parked

    equality laws do come into this as well , but this is smart

    please confirm england wales or scotland
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    • Big Dave88
    • By Big Dave88 6th Feb 18, 11:55 AM
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    Big Dave88
    • #4
    • 6th Feb 18, 11:55 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Feb 18, 11:55 AM
    Sorry it was actually 22 mins. Just looked at the time stamps on the photos. But as you quite rightly say, they are entry / exit times. The car park was very busy, being a Saturday afternoon, There was also a wait of several mins for a disabled bay to become vacant.


    This was in England.
    Last edited by Big Dave88; 06-02-2018 at 1:12 PM.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Feb 18, 11:58 AM
    • 8,706 Posts
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    pappa golf
    • #5
    • 6th Feb 18, 11:58 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Feb 18, 11:58 AM
    use the template letter with addition of wording for equality laws and a copy of the blue badge , do not name the driver

    get a POPLa code then you can fire off at POPLa

    good chance they will pull out , press publisity will hurt them
    Save a Rachael

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    • Big Dave88
    • By Big Dave88 6th Feb 18, 12:08 PM
    • 20 Posts
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    Big Dave88
    • #6
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:08 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:08 PM
    Is this the correct template that starts:-


    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle which received this purported 'parking charge'. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. I am not liable and I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs are in small print and the onerous terms are not readable.



    Do I need to include any photos of their signs, and in particular the disabled area where there are no signs? Should I also mention why the person has a blue badge? I was also told to include a shop receipt to prove why I was using the car park.


    Thanks.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Feb 18, 12:12 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
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    pappa golf
    • #7
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:12 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:12 PM
    who does the car park belong to , and is it worth kicking off withe the centres manager?
    Save a Rachael

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    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 6th Feb 18, 12:14 PM
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    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:14 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:14 PM
    Just use the template from the NEWBIES exactly as it is. No editing or additions. You save everything such as pictures for PoPLA.

    You should edit your posts to remove information about who was driving. Only ever refer to The Driver, The Keeper, and An Occupant (the one covered by the EA 2010).

    Also complain to the landowner/retail manager and your MP. Tell them this is what Peter Wishart, a Scottish MP said about Smart Parking, in parliament last Friday.

    That car park is operated by the John Wayne of all the cowboys, the appalling and loathed Smart Parking, a company that blights communities throughout Scotland,

    These are some of the comments made by other MPs concerning the unregulated parking industry.

    Cowboy companies, signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued, rogue parking companies, bloodsuckers, absolute disgrace, rogue operators, unfair charges and notices, wilfully misleading, signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead, unreasonable, designed to trap innocent drivers, a curse, harassing, operating in a disgusting way, appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing, loathed, outrageous scam, dodgy practice, outrageous abuse, unscrupulous practices, the BPA is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert.


    Tell everyone this when you complain.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 06-02-2018 at 12:20 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Big Dave88
    • By Big Dave88 6th Feb 18, 12:26 PM
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    Big Dave88
    • #9
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:26 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:26 PM
    who does the car park belong to , and is it worth kicking off withe the centres manager?
    Originally posted by pappa golf

    klmretail.com/property/kings-park-wantage


    I've spoken to the store manager, who said if my appeal is unsuccessful then to contact him again and he will see what he can do.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Feb 18, 12:31 PM
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    pappa golf
    perhaps you should take him a Photocopy of your NTK , and TELL him to get it cancelled , as publicity in local press could/would hurt them

    if the shopping centre hired smart then THEY are responsible for there agents and will be equally responsible for the breach of equality laws
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    • Big Dave88
    • By Big Dave88 6th Feb 18, 12:42 PM
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    Big Dave88
    The shopping centre don't own the car park. They have no control over it unfortunately. Even relief staff at the store have been caught out.
    • Big Dave88
    • By Big Dave88 6th Feb 18, 12:53 PM
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    Big Dave88
    Just use the template from the NEWBIES exactly as it is. .
    Originally posted by Fruitcake

    If everyone sends Smart Parking the same appeal letter, surely they would get wise to it and ignore it or come up with some way of getting around it?


    Or am I missing something?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Feb 18, 12:57 PM
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    KeithP
    If everyone sends Smart Parking the same appeal letter, surely they would get wise to it and ignore it or come up with some way of getting around it?


    Or am I missing something?
    Originally posted by Big Dave88
    Yes, the bit you are missing is that they recognise the appeal from here and realise it is not going to be easy to get any money out of you.
    Hopefully that means they accept your appeal and move on to more easy pickings.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Feb 18, 1:31 PM
    • 58,530 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Just be careful NOT to tell them who was driving.

    EVERYONE can beat Smart Parking At POPLA, as long as they appeal as keeper. Dead easy!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Big Dave88
    • By Big Dave88 6th Feb 18, 1:40 PM
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    Big Dave88
    Just be careful NOT to tell them who was driving.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad

    Thanks for that.
    • Big Dave88
    • By Big Dave88 7th Feb 18, 9:23 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    Big Dave88
    use the template letter with addition of wording for equality laws and a copy of the blue badge , do not name the driver

    get a POPLa code then you can fire off at POPLa

    good chance they will pull out , press publisity will hurt them
    Originally posted by pappa golf

    Hi again,


    Do I wait for the appeal to be rejected before contacting POPLa? Or once I have the code, send off the relevant information to them, re: poor signage, failure to meet the Equality Act 2010, etc.


    Dash cam footage has since been obtained which clearly shows the signage is not visible upon entry into the car park, along with a clear view of the disabled bays, also showing no signage.
    Further photos of where the signs are in the car park have also been obtained. There are a total of 3 signs in the car park displaying terms and conditions. Certainly not "throughout" as the initial sign suggests at the entrance to the car park. Presumably all this evidence needs to be submitted to POPLa and not Skark Parking?


    The only photo required to be sent to Shark is the upper side of the Blue Badge. Can you confirm?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 7th Feb 18, 9:33 AM
    • 9,502 Posts
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    The Deep
    You should win this at PoPLA on a combination of grace periods, heavy traffic, difficult7 in findin a space, and " reasonable adjustments" to encompass your "protected characteristics" unnder EA2010, read it here

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

    Meanwhile watch this

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    then write to your MP in the most robust terms, there are moves afoot to close down the scammers, and the more support Sir Gregg gets, the easier it will be for his bill to pass into law.
    Last edited by The Deep; 07-02-2018 at 10:11 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 7th Feb 18, 10:55 AM
    • 36,811 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    Hi again,


    Do I wait for the appeal to be rejected before contacting POPLa? Or once I have the code, send off the relevant information to them, re: poor signage, failure to meet the Equality Act 2010, etc.


    Dash cam footage has since been obtained which clearly shows the signage is not visible upon entry into the car park, along with a clear view of the disabled bays, also showing no signage.
    Further photos of where the signs are in the car park have also been obtained. There are a total of 3 signs in the car park displaying terms and conditions. Certainly not "throughout" as the initial sign suggests at the entrance to the car park. Presumably all this evidence needs to be submitted to POPLa and not Skark Parking?


    The only photo required to be sent to Shark is the upper side of the Blue Badge. Can you confirm?
    Originally posted by Big Dave88
    You can't appeal to PoPLA without a code, which you won't get until the scammers have rejected your initial appeal.

    Yes, include a copy of the BB from The Occupant, who may or may not be the keeper making the appeal.

    It looks like you have good evidence to get this killed at PoPLA.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Big Dave88
    • By Big Dave88 7th Feb 18, 11:44 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    Big Dave88
    You can't appeal to PoPLA without a code, which you won't get until the scammers have rejected your initial appeal.

    Yes, include a copy of the BB from The Occupant, who may or may not be the keeper making the appeal.

    It looks like you have good evidence to get this killed at PoPLA.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake

    Thanks once again.


    I intend adding the following to the end of the template letter. Should I omit anything from it, or add anything?




    One of the vehicle occupants was a blue badge holder. I appreciate that your ANPR system is just a dumb camera and doesn't recognisewho is and who isn't disabled, which is why I am informing you of this fact now. The blue badge holder suffers from a condition called Atrial fibrillation (among other ailments) and need to take regular breaks as they get short of breath.


    The vehicle in question was legally parked in one of the allocated disabled bays by the shop entrance, along with the blue badge clearlyon display. See attached photo of blue badge that belongs to the vehicle occupant.


    It would appear that Smart Parking and not abiding by "ReasonableAdjustments"; under the Equality Act 2010.


    Also, the BPA code of practice states the following:-
    16.5 If your landowner provides a concession that allowsparking for disabled people, if a vehicle displays a valid Blue Badge you must not issue it with parking charge notices.
    18.10 So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there should be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle. Ideally this sign should beclose to any parking bays set aside for disabled motorists.
    I should point out that 18.10 has since been amended,effective 2nd Jan 2018.
    britishparking. co . uk/AOS-Code-Changes-2018


    Clause 18.9 and 28.8 - So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there must be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle. Ideally this sign must be close to any parking bays set aside for disabled motorists. (The use of the word "should"; was replaced with "must"


    I should also point out that there are no signs close to where the disabled bays are allocated. Therefore Smart Parking are in breach of The BPA code of practice, and as such you should cancel this PCN immediately.


    Yours faithfully,
    Last edited by Big Dave88; 07-02-2018 at 11:49 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Feb 18, 1:50 PM
    • 58,530 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes that's fine.

    Do I wait for the appeal to be rejected before contacting POPLa? Or once I have the code, send off the relevant information to them, re: poor signage, failure to meet the Equality Act 2010, etc.
    Your main point will be no keeper liability first, then 'appellant not shown to be the individual liable', then 'dodgy signs', 'no landowner authority', and finally 'Equality Act' as an after thought.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 07-02-2018 at 1:55 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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