Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 4th Feb 18, 3:36 PM
    • 205Posts
    • 192Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    ESA Tribunal Again?
    • #1
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:36 PM
    ESA Tribunal Again? 4th Feb 18 at 3:36 PM
    Hi

    Long time since I posted on here!

    I claimed ESA about 4 years ago, 0 points at the medical, 0 points at MR, won at the tribunal, put in support group (thanks BTW).

    Last Friday attended medical which went badly, like the first one did, and I'm expecting 0 points again. (D!ją vu all over again)

    So here is the question, if, when, I go to the tribunal again, can I cite the previous win, my condition is worse now than it was then.

    And, how many times do I have to win at the tribunal before the DWP get the message? (assuming I win again of course!)

    Many thanks for any help given.
Page 1
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 4th Feb 18, 3:59 PM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    • #2
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:59 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:59 PM
    Hi Penitent

    Yes I'm worried about the lack of new paperwork, I had a massive amount the first time, didn't help with the DWP, but the court was impressed.

    Nearly all my appointments now are made on the phone or scheduled so no paper, I have also realised that doctors don't like to put things in writing unless they absolutely have too.

    I still have all the paperwork I had at the first hearing, and my GP will support me again.

    I would have thought that just showing that I won the last case, and showing that I'm still being treated would be enough?

    Thanks for any help.
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 4th Feb 18, 4:21 PM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    • #3
    • 4th Feb 18, 4:21 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Feb 18, 4:21 PM
    I'm very lucky, I have an excellent GP, I will of course have to ask him, but gave me a letter for the court last time, I think he would again.

    I have noticed that it is much more difficult to get help with benefit problems now, rang around all last week, either no answer/machine or fobbed off/we are swamped/ call back when I have a court date.

    Went on my own last time, worried sick I was! As it turned out I was fine, and more than willing to do battle again.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 4th Feb 18, 6:20 PM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,231 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    • #4
    • 4th Feb 18, 6:20 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Feb 18, 6:20 PM
    Why were you placed in the SG at the last tribunal, was it on the basis of Reg 35 (risk to health if you had to participate in work focused activities)?
    http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/making-exception
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 4th Feb 18, 6:36 PM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    • #5
    • 4th Feb 18, 6:36 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Feb 18, 6:36 PM
    Hi Alice

    Yes, I believe it was reg 35, but they seemed to have decide to uphold the appeal before reg 35 was mentioned.

    The wasn't really any explanation in the letter I got, no mention of points.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 4th Feb 18, 7:30 PM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,231 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    • #6
    • 4th Feb 18, 7:30 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Feb 18, 7:30 PM
    Hi SaveMeDo,

    If there was no mention of the descriptors and points on the TS Decision Notice, then it's likely to be Reg 35.
    Here are the SG descriptors:
    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/esa-glossary/1353-support-group-descriptors

    Bit more on Reg 35:
    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/2955-regulation-35-2-b-is-now-the-main-route-into-esa-support-group

    If your GP is able to confirm that participation in WRAG activities (such as meetings, group training sessions, etc) would be a risk to your health - then that would be very useful evidence.
    You could also provide evidence from family members / friends.

    This is good guide to the appeal process (it concerns PIP, but the appeal process for ESA is virtually the same):
    https://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 4th Feb 18, 7:43 PM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    • #7
    • 4th Feb 18, 7:43 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Feb 18, 7:43 PM
    Thanks Alice.

    I will read up the links.

    I have an appointment with my GP on the 16 Feb, I doubt I will have the result of the medical by then, but will ask him if he will give his support in my appeal.

    I will update my progress has the plot unfolds, but would love to hear from anyone who has had two or more tribunal hearing on how the second one was handled.

    Thank for helping.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 4th Feb 18, 8:01 PM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,231 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    • #8
    • 4th Feb 18, 8:01 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Feb 18, 8:01 PM
    Sadly, it's not uncommon for this to happen to claimants in the SG on reg35.
    You may remember that the ESA50 form did not have a question on risk to health, it just covers the descriptors.
    (A long way down the line, but for the next ESA50 be sure to put relevant info in the other info box on the form. Include a copy of your TS Decision letter and current medical evidence to show this if you think reg 35 still applies.)

    The second tribunal won't be greatly different to your first. They will likely to be asking you the same questions as the SG criteria has not changed.
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 4th Feb 18, 8:17 PM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    • #9
    • 4th Feb 18, 8:17 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Feb 18, 8:17 PM
    (A long way down the line, but for the next ESA50 be sure to put relevant info in the other info box on the form. Include a copy of your TS Decision letter and current medical evidence to show this if you think reg 35 still applies.)
    I didn't know that, It was worth starting the thread just for that bit of information, still it might help someone else.

    I still have the MR to come so maybe I can enter the reg 35 issue at that point?

    Thanks for helping.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 4th Feb 18, 8:35 PM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,231 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    I still have the MR to come so maybe I can enter the reg 35 issue at that point?
    Originally posted by SaveMeDo
    Absolutely.
    If your GP would support you, then it's worth getting a letter from him to include with your MR.

    However, few decisions are changed at MR stage. Most go on to tribunal.
    Once your appeal is lodged with the TS, you can request your ESA payments are resumed pending the hearing:
    http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/benefit-during-employment-and-support-allowance-dispute

    "Where an ESA disallowance is confirmed following an MR, ESA is payable pending an appeal against a decision that a claimant does not have limited capability for work, unless this was due to the claimant's failing to return the ESA50 questionnaire or attend a medical assessment.
    It is important to submit an appeal following an unsuccessful MR as soon as possible."

    For this reason I think it is worth getting an MR in asap:
    https://www.leicester.gov.uk/media/178163/mandatory-reconsideration-request.pdf
    - and chasing up the DWP for an MRN so you get get to appeal stage (and resumption of ESA payments) asap.
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 4th Feb 18, 8:52 PM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    Thanks Alice.

    This is all starting to feel like groundhog day!

    I've been reading that the "six month rule" where you could reapply for ESA six months after losing at tribunal is no longer allowed?

    Also, you can't have an "advocate" only a friend or carer at a hearing?

    If that is true, wow, where is the justice in that?
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 4th Feb 18, 9:27 PM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,231 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    Yes the 6 month rule is no longer - it now has to be a new condition or a significant worsening.

    You can have a representative, and a friend / relation / carer at the hearing.
    Nothing to prevent you nominating your advocate as your rep.
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 5th Feb 18, 11:25 AM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    I dug out the decision letter, I was wrong about the points, they gave me 15..

    "Decision Notice
    1. The appeal is allowed.
    2 The decision made on ******** is set aside.
    3. The appellant is entitled to Employment and Support Allowance ("ESA") with the support component.
    4. In applying the work Capability 15 points were scored for 1a from activities and descriptors from schedule 22 of ESA Regulations 2008.
    5. The following activity and descriptor from schedule 3 of ESA Regulations 2008 applied: Activity 1
    6. The Tribunal recommends that the Department does not reassess the appellant within 12 months from today's date."

    Hmm?
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 5th Feb 18, 5:54 PM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,231 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    Activity 1 is mobilising:
    1. Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid if such aid can reasonably be used.
    Cannot either
    (i) mobilise more than 50 metres on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion
    or
    (ii) repeatedly mobilise 50 metres within a reasonable timescale because of significant discomfort or exhaustion.

    Does this still apply?
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 6th Feb 18, 11:50 AM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    Hi Alice

    Yes It still applies, though proving it would be more difficult this time.

    I had loads of different issues, but I think they just ignored them, since I got the 15 points in one hit anyway.

    When I get the MR result, what I will do is contact the consultant who was dealing will the various issues, and ask for a letter from them.

    For other people to see the time scales...

    I received ESA 50 form first week August 2017, Completed form and returned 20 August. It had to be back to them by 30 August.

    I received appointment letter for medical 29 January (dated 29 January!) medical date 2nd February! So got the letter Monday, medical Friday.

    I will update the dates as I go through the process, might be helpful to other people going through this awful thing.

    Thanks for helping.
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 10th Feb 18, 11:58 AM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    Update

    Got a strange letter this morning from the DWP/jobcentreplus...

    "from 9 april 2018 the rates of some SS benefits may change.
    ...
    The attached sheet shows how we worked out your money..."

    So I thought this is just the standard letter we get every year, but then it goes on to say...

    "If you think this decision is wrong, please get in touch with us by phone or in writing within one month of the date of this letter. If you do not contact us within one month of the date of this letter, we may only be able to change the decision from the dat you contact us"

    "You can appeal against this decision, but you can not appeal until we have looked at this decision again, We call this a Mandatory Reconsideration."

    Then there is a paragraph about the MR proceedure.

    On the sheet "How your ESA has been worked out, the ESA award"

    "Living ex's £73.10
    Extra money for Disabilitity Income Guarrantee £16.40
    Extra money because you are in Support Group £37.65
    Total £127.15

    The amounts on this page apply from 12 April 2018."

    I've left the stuff out that might identify me or is not really useful.

    So, what does it all mean?
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 10th Feb 18, 12:29 PM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,231 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    Hmm

    "On the sheet "How your ESA has been worked out, the ESA award"

    "Living ex's £73.10
    Extra money for Disabilitity Income Guarrantee £16.40
    Extra money because you are in Support Group £37.65
    Total £127.15"


    That would seem to indicate you remain in the SG.
    And the bit about "You can appeal against this decision......" would seem to suggest it's a decision letter.

    I'd be inclined to ring the DWP to get some clarification. Hopefully it is a letter confirming an unchanged award following your WCA.
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 10th Feb 18, 12:46 PM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    Hi Alice

    Yes very strange, the is only 3 sheets, and one doesn't really have anything on it, There is no mention of points.

    The last time I failed the WCA they sent me a huge envelope with a book like report (full of lies BTW) The letter saying that my benefits have stopped and all the stuff to claim JSA/Housing benefit etc etc...

    I will phone Monday to try and clarify that this is indeed a decision letter, although I'm afraid to get my hopes up until someone says in clear language that they have kept me on ESA.

    Thanks for helping.
    • JJWSJS8700
    • By JJWSJS8700 10th Feb 18, 9:30 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    JJWSJS8700
    I!!!8217;ve been waitng fir 21/2 years to be put in a group and still haven!!!8217;t been placed.

    I received the same letter thinking I had been placed in a group after my assessment. Ii still have not, my Tribunal is next month.

    I hope I am wrong.
    • SaveMeDo
    • By SaveMeDo 11th Feb 18, 10:51 AM
    • 205 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    SaveMeDo
    Hi JJWSJS8700

    I just read your thread, and your case, if you don't mind me saying, is very complicated and quite different to mine.

    Anyway, I'll phone the free line (thanks Jeremy Corbyn) tomorrow and see what they say.

    After re-reading the letter a dozen times, it can't really be anything other than a positive benefit decision notice.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,400Posts Today

6,376Users online

Martin's Twitter