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  • FIRST POST
    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 30th Jan 18, 10:56 AM
    • 42Posts
    • 20Thanks
    Bookbug123
    6 year old pcn county claim form received
    • #1
    • 30th Jan 18, 10:56 AM
    6 year old pcn county claim form received 30th Jan 18 at 10:56 AM
    Sorry for starting a new thread, please don't slate me. I have been reading the advice here all weekend and I am still lost and panicking.

    Basically, as registered keeper of a vehicle I no longer own, I received a pcn in 2012 for an alleged contravention (parking without displaying a valid ticket) on 28/01/2012. At the time, I believed that the driver on that day purchased a ticket but did not enter the full reg number. The pcn included photos of the car entering and leaving the car park.

    Back in 2012, I read the available advice and I believe that I did nothing (I say this because I think I started writing an appeal to Excel Parking Services and then decided better of it). I received the expected chain of letters including those from debt collection companies which came in flurries over the years. I have since sold the car and last year we moved house. During that process I shredded all of the correspondence thinking that we were approaching the six year mark and having not received anything recent.

    In October 2017 I received another letter at my new address and was surprised they had my new details. I now realise that letter was a LBC (it is headed Letter of Claim) but being busy with moving into a new house and heavily pregnant, I didn't look into it properly and I just ignored it the same as all previous correspondence. I now realise that was a mistake.

    This week I received the Claim form dated 26/01/2018. It includes the Particulars of Claim and the original 'debt' of £90 is now £262.80 as it includes initial legal costs, court fees and legal rep costs. It is signed by Claimants Legal Representative - BW Legal Services Limited.

    I don't know what I should do now. I feel like an idiot for missing the LBC and getting rid of all my previous correspondence. I am no longer even sure that as registered keeper I had a defense from the start. I really don't want to end up in court. I am reading the forums at night while feeding a new baby and getting very anxious about it all. I understand that I only have a short amount of time to respond to the county claim form and that it is too late now to respond to the original LBC. Do I go ahead with the AOS? Do I have reasonable grounds to defend this? Please help!
Page 3
    • henrik777
    • By henrik777 20th Feb 18, 8:32 PM
    • 2,195 Posts
    • 27,913 Thanks
    henrik777
    That's not going to work, a claimant is entitled to claim interest at the statutory rate, regardless of what the prevailing commercial or Bank of England rates were during the period. The court has no discretion in that regard.

    As I said in my post #10 I think in these close to 6 year old cases a better point to raise is that the proceedings are an abuse of process and at the very least they'd have to explain why they have waited to the very last days to issue proceedings
    Originally posted by Johno100
    Has 8% simple interest been prescribed or is it just the norm ? My, limited, understanding was that the court has discretion. https://goughsq.co.uk/publication/calculating-claims-of-interest/
    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 9th Mar 18, 9:03 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Bookbug123
    Thanks for all the help so far. Defence is in and receipt confirmed. I have been sent the directions questionnaire and today received the copy of the claimants DQ. I've reread Newbies threat and understand I need to get my DQ in before the deadline and decline mediation. That's it for now right?
    Sorry for more questions. Maybe just looking for reassurance. I feel sick everytime a new letter arrives at the moment
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Mar 18, 9:08 PM
    • 58,533 Posts
    • 72,040 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Chin up, can't see you losing this one and it is worth the journey and the fight.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 18th Apr 18, 10:15 AM
    • 42 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Bookbug123
    Help. Worrying again.
    Been away for a few weeks. Returned to a letter from BW legal stating they've reviewed my defence and giving further information that they will rely upon and letter from the court offering mediation (I know not to accept this) and giving a court date in May. They want witness statement by next Monday! I thought I'd have more time. Claimant has until tomorrow to pay £25 in order for case ahead. I should be assuming they will and getting on with my witness statement right? Panicking that I don't have enough time to get it all together.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 18th Apr 18, 10:38 AM
    • 35,912 Posts
    • 20,185 Thanks
    Quentin
    Haven't you already rejected mediation to the court?

    Yes get your ws sorted now
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 18th Apr 18, 10:40 AM
    • 7,562 Posts
    • 10,063 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Help. Worrying again.
    Been away for a few weeks. Returned to a letter from BW legal stating they've reviewed my defence and giving further information that they will rely upon and letter from the court offering mediation (I know not to accept this) and giving a court date in May. They want witness statement by next Monday! I thought I'd have more time. Claimant has until tomorrow to pay £25 in order for case ahead. I should be assuming they will and getting on with my witness statement right? Panicking that I don't have enough time to get it all together.
    Originally posted by Bookbug123
    No to mediation. If BWLegal are convinced they will win,
    they would go to court.

    Keep in contact with the court about their fee being paid.
    Do not assume they will pay in time
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 18th Apr 18, 11:44 AM
    • 2,765 Posts
    • 3,441 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Get your WS done.
    Remmeebr it is a statement of facts, so start with who is RK of vehicle, etc. Then go through in chronological order the events

    You must reference your evidnce from your WS, so photos etc.
    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 18th Apr 18, 12:22 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Bookbug123
    I don't have photos as alleged contravention was back in 2012. They have photos of the vehicle I recall but haven't seen those in some time. Have tried googling for their signage at the time but haven't found anything yet.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 19th Apr 18, 6:11 AM
    • 2,418 Posts
    • 4,304 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    nd giving a court date in May
    Who is giving a court date in May. Is this a court letter? Or is this something that BW are stating?

    A court date can only come from the court in a Notice of Allocation which gives the date by which BW need to pay the hearing fee.

    If this date is from BW could we see the letter but take your personal details off.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 19th Apr 18, 8:40 AM
    • 42 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Bookbug123
    Date is from the court. Be have to pay hearing fee by today.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Apr 18, 8:57 AM
    • 9,514 Posts
    • 9,274 Thanks
    The Deep
    What about unreasonable costs? Surely, by anyone's standards, the PPC is behaving unreasonably and is causing the OP an unnecessary amount of work.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 19th Apr 18, 9:23 AM
    • 2,765 Posts
    • 3,441 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Right now the OP needs to sort out their WS
    Costs schedule comes waaaaay later..
    Can you just let them do this in th eright order, to avoid confusion? ta

    OK I was giving an example. You state that the passage of time is such that you put them to strict proof of all their claims, including time and date stamped photographs of the signs in situ, and not just a "plan" which will likely just be a squiggle on a google mpas screenshot.
    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 19th Apr 18, 8:19 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Bookbug123
    Right now the OP needs to sort out their WS
    Costs schedule comes waaaaay later..
    Can you just let them do this in th eright order, to avoid confusion? ta

    OK I was giving an example. You state that the passage of time is such that you put them to strict proof of all their claims, including time and date stamped photographs of the signs in situ, and not just a "plan" which will likely just be a squiggle on a google mpas screenshot.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    Thank you Nosferatu.
    I spoke to the court and BW paid the trail fee so now I need to get WS together by Monday. Not sure how I'm going to do this.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 18, 8:28 PM
    • 58,533 Posts
    • 72,040 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    By copying/adapting another one written already; the obvious thing would be to search the forum for Excel 2012 witness statement. This is such an easy stage.

    Jeez this is so simple to copy, there is even a poster TODAY here, posting about his Excel WS and evidence (NO LINK, IT COMES UP AS THE FIRST RESULT WHEN YOU SEARCH THE FORUM AND 'SHOW POSTS'). Amazed you didn't see it when you posted this morning.

    And by reading the NEWBIES thread that shows example WS and lists some typical evidence (e.g. the POFA Sch4). Plus the case transcripts in your defence (READ your defence, what did it say you would produce?). e.g. Excel v Lamoureux, Excel v Smith (appeal) from the Parking Prankster's case law pages, like everyone else does with a non POFA case.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-04-2018 at 8:32 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 19th Apr 18, 8:57 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Bookbug123
    Thanks for the pointing me to relevant posts, I do appreciate it. I didn't see it this morning. It doesn't seem easy to me at all as the whole process in unfamiliar and anxiety provoking.
    The court has said I can email my WS as there is no way I will have it ready to get there by post on Monday. I assume that means also emailing all of the appendicies, should this be as one large document or seperate ones?
    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 19th Apr 18, 10:29 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Bookbug123
    Ok, here is what I have to start with... thoughts and advice welcome...

    IN THE COUNTY COURT AT *******
    CLAIM NUMBER: ******
    EXCEL SERVICES LTD
    (Claimant)

    -and-

    ********(Defendant)

    ___________________

    WITNESS STATEMENT
    ___________________

    I, ********** of 1********************** am the defendant in this case. I am unrepresented, with no experience of Court procedures. If I do not set out documents in the way that the Claimant may do, I trust the Court will excuse my inexperience.

    1. The facts in this statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my own knowledge there are true to the best of my information and belief.

    2. I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all and this is my Witness Statement in support of my defence as already filed.

    3. The claimant has produced no evidence of who was driving

    4. I assert that I was the registered keeper (RK) of the vehicle in question in this case. I was not the driver.

    5. The claimant cannot “presume” that the defendant and RK was the driver at the time of the alleged contravention. For the following reasons.

    6. There is no law that allow them to do this.

    7. The defendant asserts under ‘statement of truth’ that he was not the driver on this occasion. This will be repeated in court should this claim proceed to a hearing.

    8. With no route in law to transfer liability for any alleged contravention, by a driver - to the RK, this claim is null and void. There is no case to answer. The claimant must prove who was driving then take the matter up separately with that person.

    9. Barrister and parking law expert Henry Greenslade was the ‘Parking on Private Land Appeals’ (“POPLA”) Lead Adjudicator from 2012 – 2015. This is an independent appeals service offered by the British Parking Assosciation (“BPA”) and Excel was under that Trade Body at the time of the alleged contravention. I adduce as evidence (exhibit XXX) Mr Greenslade’s opinion in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 which confirms that there is no presumption in law that a keeper was the driver and that keepers do not have any legal obligation whatsoever, to name drivers to private parking companies. (Exhibit Popla 2015)

    10. The Claimant claims no right to pursue myself the Defendant as the registered keeper as they have failed to meet the conditions of PoFA 2012. I the keeper could only be held liable if the claimant had fully complied with the strict requirements. (Exhibit PoFA Schedule 4)

    11. I refer to Excel v Mr B C7DP8F83 at Sheffield 14/12/2016. In this case the Keeper was not the driver, so he elected to offer no evidence, and put the claimant to strict proof. This of course was an impossibility for the claimant. As Mr B was not the driver, there would be no way they could offer any proof. The Judge made it clear that without proof of driver, and without invoking Keeper Liability, there was no claim against the Keeper. ( Exhibit – Excel Vs Mr B)

    12. The claimant is known to use Elliot V Loake as part of their defence. I refer to Excel v Mr C C8DP37F1 at Stockport 31/10/2016. In this case the judge recognised that Elliot vs Loake was completely irrelevant. In dismissing the claim the judge stated amongst his reasons for doing so that - Excel did not adduce evidence of the driver, and - Elliott v Loake is not persuasive, and can be distinguished. (Exhibit Excel V Mr C)

    13. I refer to the case of Excel v Ian Lamoureux, C3DP56Q5 at Skipton 17/11/2016. The Judge was critical of the claimant’s attempts to hold the keeper liable. The judge suggested that the only way Mr Lamoureux could be held liable was if he was the driver and Excel could prove he was (which they could not). The judge stated “I think the claim against Mr Lamoureux is totally misconceived because it has no evidence that he is the driver and it seems to be relying on some assumption that the registered keeper is the driver because it is not seeking to rely on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012”. (Exhibit Excel Vs Lamoureux ).

    14. The claimant has waited until two days before any alleged ‘debt’ is Statute Barred under the conditions of the Limitations Act 1980 to file a claim. The passage of time (six years) is such that I cannot recall the exact details of the day and location in question.

    15. The location in question is a site which in 2012 was criticised in national media and by local MPs for inadequate and unclear signage leading to the cancellation of a number of notices against motorists by the Claimant.

    16. It cannot be assumed that anyone entering the car park in 2012 - when Excel used particularly crowded and illegible wording on all their signage - was aware of or agreed to any 'parking charge' terms. The Claimant is put to strict proof that the driver (an unidentified party) saw, read and agreed to a contract upon which the claimant is relying.

    17. I put the claimant to strict proof of all their claims including providing time and date stamped photographic evidence of signage in situ.

    18. My case can be distinguished from the Beavis case, which was dependent upon Mr Beavis being the driver who accepted a clear contract, formed by unusually prominent signage. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice and the clear, prominent terms on brief signs was held to be paramount. None of this applies in this material case. (Exhibit- Beavis Case Sign).

    19. As a member of the British Parking Association (BPA) in 2012, this Claimant was banned by the DVLA for several months for 'a significant breach' of the Code of Practice. This ban was reported by the DVLA in a Freedom of Information reply in the public domain, as relating to unacceptable and misleading wording on their signs, which attempted to suggest a registered keeper could be liable, before the POFA was enacted. Implying that a keeper could be liable or responsible for the actions of a driver was identified by the DVLA as so serious a matter that Excel was banned from obtaining registered keeper data for three months. From their action in my case it is clear they have not changed their tactics. They are attempting to hold me liable as they RK when, in law, they can do no such thing. (Exhibit - DVLA Freedom of information Request Regarding Excel 2012 Ban).

    I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true.

    Signed
    Date
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Apr 18, 12:11 AM
    • 58,533 Posts
    • 72,040 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The court has said I can email my WS as there is no way I will have it ready to get there by post on Monday.
    Don't email it, the attachments are too much to expect a court to print (they will not have realised that you have quite a lot to say & attach!).

    Email the copy you send to the other side's solicitors, but not the one for your Judge!

    Hand deliver it in a ring binder or folder with a contents page, and everything in order, printed out. This needs to be a paginated file, with numbering on pages as well as numbered evidence, and the claim number and the words 'DEFENDANT'S WITNESS STATEMENT AND EVIDENCE' on the front, so it can't get misfiled.

    If you can't take it on Monday, ask a friend you trust to 100% do it.

    Make this one point, not two:
    5. The claimant cannot 'presume' that a RK was the driver at the time of the alleged contravention. There is no law that allow them to do this.
    And you have several uses of 'the Defendant', whereas a WS needs to be in the first person.

    Have you got the transcripts for all the cases you are using? What about Excel v Smith?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 20-04-2018 at 12:14 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 20th Apr 18, 7:49 AM
    • 42 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Bookbug123
    I haven't got any of the documents or transcripts yet. That's my next job. I also currently have no way of printing it all out. Gonna need a trip to the library!
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 20th Apr 18, 8:20 AM
    • 9,514 Posts
    • 9,274 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Bookbug123
    • By Bookbug123 20th Apr 18, 11:57 AM
    • 42 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Bookbug123
    Quick question.
    Some of the transcripts are big - should I print the whole thing or an exerpt which supports my case? Will the court read the whole thing?
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