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  • FIRST POST
    • mrsjh
    • By mrsjh 29th Jan 18, 2:42 PM
    • 3Posts
    • 0Thanks
    mrsjh
    Fraudulent card use - HSBC refusing refund
    • #1
    • 29th Jan 18, 2:42 PM
    Fraudulent card use - HSBC refusing refund 29th Jan 18 at 2:42 PM
    My husband lost his HSBC visa debit card on a recent business trip to Las Vegas. He did not use this HSBC card whilst there as he has a work American Express card that he tries to use for all expenses when travelling with work. The following day when he discovered it missing he reported it to HSBC. He returned to the UK the next day & discovered approx £1500 of fraudulent transactions had taken place before he reported it missing (all in the space of about 3 hours), mainly signed for transactions in various supermarkets, but there were 2 cash withdrawals that apparently used the correct pin. His card was not copied, & no-one saw him use the pin as he did not use it, he definitely did not write down or give his pin to anyone. He also has witnesses who were with him at a conference during the time these transactions took place. HSBC have stated that they do not believe him to be a victim of fraud and will not refund any of the money. We have appealed giving all the detail in writing to them but they will not change their decision, they have said we must now go to the financial ombudsman. Help! We are at a loss what we can do, my husband did not carry out any of these transactions including the cash withdrawals with a pin so how could it happen & how is it possible to prove he is telling the truth? Has anybody had a similar experience? Any advice before we approach the financial ombudsman?
Page 2
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 30th Jan 18, 8:54 PM
    • 6,860 Posts
    • 3,723 Thanks
    chattychappy
    That second link is very interesting, thank you. I wasn!!!8217;t aware of the £50 limit on monies owed to the bank, when (and why) did this come about?
    Originally posted by Shakin Steve
    1974 as part of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - and the world of plastic we have today was probably never anticipated. A classic example of nobody really noticing what the law meant in a modern context.

    I think it "made sense" to people that if they were careless with a credit card then the bank could make them pay. Also the banks created T+Cs to make it look that way. They generally said something to the effect of "once you let us know you'll only be responsible for up to £50" when the true position is that whether you tell them or not, legally you are only responsible for up to £50 and then only if you're grossly negligent. (Of course you are responsible if you are fraudulent or you have authorised someone else to use the card.)

    When I lost a card, I was asked by MBNA "is it possible anybody knew your PIN". Of course I answered no, and there was no problem (I later found the card). But paradoxically people might be in a stronger position if they say something like "Well, yes. I have a terrible memory so I wrote the number in my diary and that was with the card. I am terribly stupid. Sorry." If the card is used fraudulently, the bank can't really claim you used when all along it is possible is that somebody got the number. On the other hand, if you swear blind that nobody could have got your PIN and in fact the card does get used with a PIN, the bank could well conclude that you must have used the PIN.

    Anyway, as I say:

    DEBIT CARD (POSITIVE BALANCE): Authorised transaction OR grossly negligent = cardholder pays

    CREDIT CARD or DEBIT CARD (OVERDRAWN): Authorised transaction = cardholder pays. Gross negligence = bank pays.

    Onus is on bank to prove cardholder liability.

    On the gross negligence issue, see:
    http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/46/46_plastic_cards.htm

    but it won't be relevant to the OP unless her husband was overdrawn (or the transactions created an overdraft).
    • Norfolk_Jim
    • By Norfolk_Jim 31st Jan 18, 1:50 PM
    • 1,199 Posts
    • 1,111 Thanks
    Norfolk_Jim
    Long ago I had cash withdrawn from my bank account using a pin number and debit card - the problem was, I was 150 miles away and so was my card. At first the bank said it had to have been done by a family member of someone I'd revealed my pin to. I asked them to tell me at what branch and at what time the withdrawal was made. Fortunately for me I was able to show them that at that very time I was in Royal Lemington Spa, in a branch of that bank, asking for money over the counter because I didn't even know my pin number. That wont help you but at least it shows that it can happen. I also had my card cloned in Japan and used for transactions in another Japanese city and then USA. Bank spotted it but couldn't get in touch with me in Japan. As it was, I only used it once - for my hotel deposit. Did you husband stay in a hotel in Vegas? Did he have to give a CC impression for security?
    Good luck anyway
    • David555
    • By David555 31st Jan 18, 4:47 PM
    • 50 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    David555
    It's scary that the banks can just rub their hands of any fraud if the pin was used with the amount of card skimming going on. Even just by using your card in a shop cctv can easily record your pin up. This video I saw a while back for example https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fN27hTrltf0 it's shocking how close the cctv can zoom in to pick your pin up. A invasion of privacy I'd say! Doesn't take much for a doggy shop to replace their card reader with a skimming one and have a camera zoomed in to pick the pin up. (I'm not saying the YouTube link shop is a scam by filming the chip n pin reader but just highlights what shops can do if they wanted to)

    Certainly made me think twice about paying with card in unknown places and where possible I'll use contactless to avoid entering my pin if it allows.
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 31st Jan 18, 6:20 PM
    • 8,318 Posts
    • 10,667 Thanks
    PeacefulWaters
    It's scary that the banks can just rub their hands of any fraud if the pin was used with the amount of card skimming going on. Even just by using your card in a shop cctv can easily record your pin up. This video I saw a while back for example https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fN27hTrltf0 it's shocking how close the cctv can zoom in to pick your pin up. A invasion of privacy I'd say! Doesn't take much for a doggy shop to replace their card reader with a skimming one and have a camera zoomed in to pick the pin up. (I'm not saying the YouTube link shop is a scam by filming the chip n pin reader but just highlights what shops can do if they wanted to)

    Certainly made me think twice about paying with card in unknown places and where possible I'll use contactless to avoid entering my pin if it allows.
    Originally posted by David555
    In future it's cash only for me at the pet shop.
    • Tigsteroonie
    • By Tigsteroonie 31st Jan 18, 6:25 PM
    • 22,806 Posts
    • 57,218 Thanks
    Tigsteroonie
    I don't suppose he was daft enough to have the same PIN for the HSBC and Amex cards?
    Mrs Marleyboy

    MSE: many of the benefits of a helpful family, without disadvantages like having to compete for the tv remote

    Proud Parents to an Au-some son
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 31st Jan 18, 7:44 PM
    • 7,859 Posts
    • 8,693 Thanks
    eskbanker
    In future it's cash only for me at the pet shop.
    Originally posted by PeacefulWaters
    No payments authorised by Chipmunk and terraPIN then?
    • AllieKat
    • By AllieKat 1st Feb 18, 1:28 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 58 Thanks
    AllieKat
    This just isn't true. If your PIN is skimmed you weren't negligent and aren't liable! You may have a fight with your bank, but take that fight to court.

    It's also why contactless (with No CVM or with CDCVM, not with Online PIN) or chip and signature are actually safer in one significant way... A PIN capture device can't be used with a stolen card/chip (yes there have been cases of fraudsters in Brazil stealing just the chip) or a magstripe clone (in a magstripe ATM) to steal money from an ATM.
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 2nd Feb 18, 3:46 AM
    • 6,860 Posts
    • 3,723 Thanks
    chattychappy
    This just isn't true. If your PIN is skimmed you weren't negligent and aren't liable! You may have a fight with your bank, but take that fight to court.
    Originally posted by AllieKat
    Quite right.

    It's also why contactless (with No CVM or with CDCVM, not with Online PIN) or chip and signature are actually safer in one significant way... A PIN capture device can't be used with a stolen card/chip (yes there have been cases of fraudsters in Brazil stealing just the chip) or a magstripe clone (in a magstripe ATM) to steal money from an ATM.
    Originally posted by AllieKat
    Yep. In particular, Signature/Contactless, it is more difficult for the bank to establish that the cards were successfully used as a result of your gross negligence.

    (And as a reminder, this is only an issue for debit cards attached to non-overdrawn accounts. With CCs, negligence is not an issue.)
    • rossowheels
    • By rossowheels 3rd Apr 18, 11:03 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    rossowheels
    My husband lost his HSBC visa debit card on a recent business trip to Las Vegas. He did not use this HSBC card whilst there as he has a work American Express card that he tries to use for all expenses when travelling with work. The following day when he discovered it missing he reported it to HSBC. He returned to the UK the next day & discovered approx £1500 of fraudulent transactions had taken place before he reported it missing (all in the space of about 3 hours), mainly signed for transactions in various supermarkets, but there were 2 cash withdrawals that apparently used the correct pin. His card was not copied, & no-one saw him use the pin as he did not use it, he definitely did not write down or give his pin to anyone. He also has witnesses who were with him at a conference during the time these transactions took place. HSBC have stated that they do not believe him to be a victim of fraud and will not refund any of the money. We have appealed giving all the detail in writing to them but they will not change their decision, they have said we must now go to the financial ombudsman. Help! We are at a loss what we can do, my husband did not carry out any of these transactions including the cash withdrawals with a pin so how could it happen & how is it possible to prove he is telling the truth? Has anybody had a similar experience? Any advice before we approach the financial ombudsman?
    Originally posted by mrsjh
    I am the victim of debit card fraud and it feels like being physically mugged. Itís not a laughing matter! I worked out how they did it and it was simply someone monitoring my behaviour over time. I used a gym which had a four digit combination lock which took a random number each time a user chose to ďhireĒ it. This was at a gym. I rarely use PIN at ATMís as I prefer digit transactions ie Apple Pay & only kept a debit card as a back up. Sometimes I was aware that I had chosen my PIN number as a lock code. Silly but it happened. The thief & fraudster must have taken note and had a lucky day. They even stole and used my card within a hourís window when they knew I was working out!
    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 4th Apr 18, 3:14 AM
    • 25,075 Posts
    • 12,331 Thanks
    jonesMUFCforever
    In Vegas I have seen chip and pin terminals whereby transactions are authorised without you entering a Pin - you sign but most places asked me for ID.

    OP did you lose any other ID?
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • ad_118
    • By ad_118 13th May 18, 4:11 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    ad_118
    I am the victim of debit card fraud and it feels like being physically mugged. It!!!8217;s not a laughing matter! I worked out how they did it and it was simply someone monitoring my behaviour over time. I used a gym which had a four digit combination lock which took a random number each time a user chose to !!!8220;hire!!!8221; it. This was at a gym. I rarely use PIN at ATM!!!8217;s as I prefer digit transactions ie Apple Pay & only kept a debit card as a back up. Sometimes I was aware that I had chosen my PIN number as a lock code. Silly but it happened. The thief & fraudster must have taken note and had a lucky day. They even stole and used my card within a hour!!!8217;s window when they knew I was working out!
    Originally posted by rossowheels
    The same thing happened to me at the gym last week.

    They took 2 out of 4 bank cards from my wallet and even swapped out my SIM card with one from the same network provider. They left everything else in place (including quite an expensive watch) and re-locked the locker in the hope I wouldn't notice the robbery.

    Using my SIM card in another phone they were able to respond positively to fraud alert texts sent by my card providers. Various banks offer basic text services to detail balances, recent transaction etc. Using this information they were able begin a reset process on my Internet Banking profiles too. Thankfully I noticed before they inflicted a huge amount of damage.

    It was quite the wake-up call...

    Credit where it's due - HSBC have been really good with my case and swiftly refunded the money.
    Last edited by ad_118; 16-05-2018 at 6:27 PM.
    • starM
    • By starM 14th May 18, 8:54 AM
    • 1,380 Posts
    • 182 Thanks
    starM
    OP. I have went through this previously with HSBC. Ombudsman I I'll not do anything. Their final response will be how did the fraudster knew your pin.
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