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  • FIRST POST
    • dead ringer
    • By dead ringer 24th Jan 18, 7:52 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 9Thanks
    dead ringer
    PCN parking outside my own home
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 18, 7:52 PM
    PCN parking outside my own home 24th Jan 18 at 7:52 PM
    Hi, 1st post.
    Need advice but sorry for a very long winded tale and defo not the usual.

    Basically live on a private housing estate where the estate management company actually enlisted services of car park management firm.
    Estate is basically divided. 3/4 very expensive privately owned houses. And the much resented cheaper 1/4 of social housing (flats) which i'm in. All property's have a single numbered bay plus half dozen 'spare' visitor bays. Fortunately my car park is secluded and never abused. The much bigger private part is.

    We were all giving a permit to display and first few months were fine. However a few neighbors started getting fined for parking in visitor bays (2nd cars) I also started getting 'fined' for having no permit.
    Basically it transpired after receiving pictures that I had on occasion parked facing out. Normally I face IN so I may get tools in and out of boot. And to avoid problems like this I stuck permit to center of my rear window. After phoning them to explain I was told to pay the fine and appeal.
    I received several more 'reminders' and threats PLUS additional new pcns. (probably a dozen or more)
    I even caught on 2 or 3 occasions their staff and pointed out the permit as they were taking notes as well as new pictures.
    Well after a couple of years or so and probably many many complaints, including several from me, the management company has changed the parking firms remit and they no longer patrol my little car park.

    However their parting shot was to take as many as they could to court.

    Notice arrived about 6 months ago from Nottingham court business center to attend hearing and lots of legal jargon about fast track.
    There were a few forms to fill in and I agreed to go. Several more letters from them and the parking firms solicitors (gladstone brooks) regarding charges.
    I requested the court move closer to me, Guildford, which they agreed to. So its now to be held in Stains around March.
    The last I heard related to 'evidence' that included several pages suggesting I had no legal or lawful right to park in my own numbered parking space (lease holder law?) with several pages of previous judgments. And also additional pictures of front of my car.

    My thoughts initially were as it was MY space to park in, they could swivel.
    And as I DID and still do have their permit displayed, albeit stuck on my back window, they can swivel.

    But as the time drawers nearer, I'm starting to sweat.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th Jan 18, 12:55 AM
    • 57,301 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 25th Jan 18, 12:55 AM
    • #2
    • 25th Jan 18, 12:55 AM
    Notice arrived about 6 months ago from Nottingham Northampton court business center to attend hearing and lots of legal jargon about fast track.
    There were a few forms to fill in and I agreed to go. Several more letters from them and the parking firms solicitors (gladstone brooks) Gladstones, regarding charges.
    I requested the court move closer to me, Guildford, which they agreed to. So its now to be held in Stains around March.
    The last I heard related to 'evidence' that included several pages suggesting I had no legal or lawful right to park in my own numbered parking space (lease holder law?) with several pages of previous judgments. And also additional pictures of front of my car.

    My thoughts initially were as it was MY space to park in, they could swivel.
    And as I DID and still do have their permit displayed, albeit stuck on my back window, they can swivel.

    But as the time drawers nearer, I'm starting to sweat.
    So what did you send as your Witness Statement (I don't mean the defence you submitted in reply to the claim, before Christmas) and your evidence? Did you file with the court and Gladstones:

    - a copy of your lease terms showing you have a right to park, and hopefully it states nothing about permits and doesn't give the Managing Agents carte blanche to /impose regulations'?

    - a copy of the letter or email that came with the permit, that hopefully says nothing about paying 100 parking charges?

    - a copy of the usual case law we use in all the zillions of residential cases here?

    Did you even file your WS and evidence yet? If not, why not? Sounds like Gladstones have done their side! What's the date for exchange of Witness Statements and the evidence both parties intend to rely on, as stated in the letter that gave you the hearing date.

    Read it again, if you missed it. You MUST comply with court directions, not just rock up in March armed with documents that will be disallowed because you never filed them with any WS.

    Then read post #2 of the NEWBIES thread about Witness Statement/evidence stage.

    Then search the forum for 'residential Jopson witness statement' and read plenty of threads like yours, we have loads. You have a good case as the permit was always displayed and their operatives knew that, took photos, yet kept coming back to try to extort money from you.

    Show us the words from your tenancy agreement (or lease, if you are the leasehold flat owner).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 25-01-2018 at 12:58 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • dead ringer
    • By dead ringer 25th Jan 18, 8:47 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    dead ringer
    • #3
    • 25th Jan 18, 8:47 PM
    • #3
    • 25th Jan 18, 8:47 PM
    OK quick reply. just in from work and looking for papers.
    Unfortunately I made a mistake and have confused the date.
    Like with so much of this stuff, copies of everything sent back n forth with dates, places times changing etc. I confused the March date when its actually next wek 31 Jan 2018.

    in regards to your questions, I'm afraid I was planning to just turn up and say my piece, and show a pic of the permit stuck on my back window. Even with their 'rules' saying it should be on the front, would this have any not over ride any claims they make. i.e. failure to display - When I did / have.

    I have not made or sent a witness statement. i do not have any evidence to send.
    I am currently wading through bags of 'important' letters and mail from my years as a resident and found a reference from my solicitor after moving in, showing correspondence with management company and land owner solicitors requesting a variation of lease following a change they made to allocated parking spaces. Basically the initial lease gave the right to a parking space in the carpark 1st come 1st served. But after they decided to number them they neglected to allow a (numbered) space for me. Between them they agreed to re allocate a V isitor bay and number it.

    Other than that Im still hunting for my copy of the lease.
    I'm obviously going to be doing a lot of reading. Thanks for the links

    just to add, the the date for exchange of Witness Statements was 4 jan.
    Last edited by dead ringer; 25-01-2018 at 8:57 PM.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 26th Jan 18, 12:20 AM
    • 1,013 Posts
    • 1,946 Thanks
    Johnersh
    • #4
    • 26th Jan 18, 12:20 AM
    • #4
    • 26th Jan 18, 12:20 AM
    Notice arrived about 6 months ago from Nottingham court business center to attend hearing and lots of legal jargon about fast track.
    This concerns me. Is it a small claim or has it been assigned to the fast track? This is crucial - relevant as to whether the claimant can recover legal costs. How much are they seeking from you? Is it a 4 figure sum?

    You are in a state. No one can safely help you without sight of the documents. You are at the door to court. You need to Dropbox images of the claim form and subsequent orders & statements. What does your defence say?

    I'm guessing the parking company has details of the parking plan but not the deed of variation. It would also be interesting to note whether the parking contract, once rescinded, permits them to continue the pursuit of such claims.

    Consideration may needs to be given to the need for a time extension...
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 26th Jan 18, 12:31 AM
    • 18,093 Posts
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    Redx
    • #5
    • 26th Jan 18, 12:31 AM
    • #5
    • 26th Jan 18, 12:31 AM
    on a side note , I dont think you can just rock up and have "your say"

    the standard procedures are to file a defence after completing the AOS on MCOL (which is in Northampton) , then the DQ stage comes and after the court has been allocated (Staines) you file your evidence and witness statements etc, plus a skeleton argument and a costs schedule (all BEFORE the court date) to Staines court

    in court you may comment if asked or if you are allowed on their witness statements , contracts and suchlike, plus answer any questions (or not) put by the claimant (or the judge)

    so I hope you have done all of the above , and if not then the skelly and the costs should go in asap (in writing of course) to Staines court
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Jan 18, 9:53 PM
    • 57,301 Posts
    • 70,914 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 26th Jan 18, 9:53 PM
    • #6
    • 26th Jan 18, 9:53 PM
    Basically the initial lease gave the right to a parking space in the carpark 1st come 1st served. But after they decided to number them they neglected to allow a (numbered) space for me. Between them they agreed to re allocate a V isitor bay and number it.
    Sounds good evidence to go with the WS you WILL betaking in person to the court, with your evidence (photos and the above proving your right to the space, no caveats) on Monday morning. And emailing a copy to Gladstones, along with a draft costs schedule.

    You are not the first person we've helped who thought they could just rock up at court holding a pile of photos & documents to spring on the claimant. No idea why because the NEWBIES thread tells peop'e 'defence is not your only job' and explains what to do next. IamEmanresu's posting signature even warns people about missing this stage.

    Such cases HAVE been rescued (no extension of time needed) merely by submitting the WS and evidence now.

    I recall Publican Paul on pepipoo filed his WS & evidence with ONE day to spare, then he went to the hearing and won within 5 minutes, because he did a bit of a forum crash-course on how to challenge the Rights of Audience of the self employed solicitor who rocked up instead of the claimant, or Gladstones (who never attend). He claimed his costs and loved it!

    So, your task this weekend is to read about WS and evidence stage (newbies thread post #2) then show us your WS. YOU MUST do this, to rescue it. Please don't come back shrieking about it being 'too late'. It is not, and you now have a way to claw this back.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 26-01-2018 at 9:56 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • dead ringer
    • By dead ringer 31st Jan 18, 1:52 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    dead ringer
    • #7
    • 31st Jan 18, 1:52 PM
    • #7
    • 31st Jan 18, 1:52 PM
    Attended court today.
    Just like to say thanks for the replies and advice.
    Unfortunately I really didnt understand much of it, despite reading a lot.

    In the end I had already accepted I will loose a days pay just by attending, but compared to not attending and having the case go just on their blatant and arrogant charges alone, I risked a far greater loss.

    In the end a very nice lady judge heard both sides and very diligently considered the arguments.
    For my side, having authority to park was a deciding factor, even without the fact I did have a permit displayed, but just not in the window they stipulated.

    So in the end, despite knowing very little, just by turning up I avoided having to pay their trumped up fine as well as several hundreds worth of costs.

    I declined the offer to submit my own costs.
    Hearing that judgement was payment enough, without appearing as greedy as them.
    Boy did it feel good.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 31st Jan 18, 3:50 PM
    • 4,116 Posts
    • 5,844 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #8
    • 31st Jan 18, 3:50 PM
    • #8
    • 31st Jan 18, 3:50 PM
    Congratulations you could take it further, as they had no just cause to access your data.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 31st Jan 18, 4:03 PM
    • 7,316 Posts
    • 9,745 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #9
    • 31st Jan 18, 4:03 PM
    • #9
    • 31st Jan 18, 4:03 PM
    WELL DONE

    The Gladstones boys .... Pinky and Perky with their
    idiotic claims get whooped again
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Feb 18, 12:37 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Well done to you!

    Another one bites the dust in court! Hooray!

    Which court was this one?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • dead ringer
    • By dead ringer 15th May 18, 10:43 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    dead ringer
    Hi, just a small update...

    I thought this was now well an truly all over. they had their day in court - AND LOST.
    But now they've sent me another bill. Same as before, same offense, date fee everything.
    Time for fun n games, or should I be concerned ?

    Is it a new trend with these leeches.

    I had another unrelated pcn from my council from 5mins late back. I paid it, 2 weeks late another reminder asking for FULL fine, I contacted them, explained Id paid. Of course both luvvies were off sick at the time (when we had those few days of sunshine ). Got a call left on my ansaphone which I could barely hear or understand which sounded like it was a young child. I'm not kidding or trying to be insulting.

    Then last week believing it was sorted got another demand for the full fine plus another 50. No request to contact them again or that they had any concern or queries. Just soo rude.

    So paid a visit to council, held my breath so not to scream at the receptionist. Took her 30 seconds to look through payments on screen and she found it. She then had to then do a screen grab and email to parking dept.

    Got a letter a week later, 'advising' me I.T have been notified of the problem and pcn has been cleared. No apology, or acknowledgement they screwed up, nothing.

    I tell ya, there's gonna be a revolution soon because this is all getting way out of control.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 18, 12:55 AM
    • 57,301 Posts
    • 70,914 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I thought this was now well an truly all over. they had their day in court - AND LOST. But now they've sent me another bill. Same as before, same offense, date fee everything.
    Time for fun n games, or should I be concerned ?
    What, the same PCN number and exact same parking event, they are demanding money for?

    Or a different day, but similar facts?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 16th May 18, 6:54 AM
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    • 1,946 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Sounds like a new ticket.

    I'd do a robust response, very close to that in arkell v pressdram (Google it) referring them to the judgment and making clear that if they proceed with debt collection and/or proceedings you will counterclaim for misuse of your personal data and claim your costs to include unreasonable costs under CPR 27(1)(g). Having been kind enough to waive your costs previously, you are not prepared to do so again.

    In light of the existing judgment of X county court, relating to the same site, parking bay, vehicle and permit, they are on notice that there is no legitimate legal or business interest that permits them to utilise your personal data under the GDPR, applicable from 25 May 2018.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • dead ringer
    • By dead ringer 16th May 18, 7:46 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    dead ringer
    Thank you for quick replies.
    Off hand i think it was same charge. At work now so will check details when home.
    To be honest didnt compare details. I opened it Friday evening and didnt want to ruin another weekend stressing
    • dead ringer
    • By dead ringer 16th May 18, 9:39 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    dead ringer
    I've spent the evening hunting for any of the old pcn's but can't find any. Think they must've been filed under 'Bin'.
    The only old letter i've found re court case that has any reference to the pcn has a completely different reference number. However given that I almost got a ticket from them on a weekly basis, they probably have a few backlog. The new letter does have one of the old dates (Jan 2017) which from memory is the period of the pcn I was taken to court over.
    However I believe its all academic now. A judgment was made, and regardless how many back dated pcn's they dig up and re issue, and try it on with, in my mind that judgement will stand for any and all.

    If they do actually pursue court again, which I do hope they will, boy will they get it. That Arkell v pressdram case, which was great info thank you, will be getting pushed well down the page to make room for mine
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 18, 10:02 PM
    • 57,301 Posts
    • 70,914 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Do what Johnersh said, and do it NOW.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 16th May 18, 10:13 PM
    • 1,013 Posts
    • 1,946 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Couple of points:

    1. Whilst its the tenor of a reply i suggest, Do NOT cite arkell v pressdram in cirrespondence or court (even if it's sometimes deserved)

    2. A judgment is helpful, but not binding. You do want to engage with the PPC and get their written confirmation that they will withdraw all claims and intended claims against you
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
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