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  • FIRST POST
    • jac265
    • By jac265 21st Jan 18, 7:51 PM
    • 25Posts
    • 8Thanks
    jac265
    Indigo - appeal to pcn or wait for NtK?
    • #1
    • 21st Jan 18, 7:51 PM
    Indigo - appeal to pcn or wait for NtK? 21st Jan 18 at 7:51 PM
    The driver received a pcn for parking in a station car park having paid using the app but entered the incorrect registration by one letter. In the light of the fact that indigo is denying an appeal to POPLA is it worth making an appeal to indigo’s pcn or just wait for the NtK?
    Thank you.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 21st Jan 18, 7:53 PM
    • 18,139 Posts
    • 22,936 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 21st Jan 18, 7:53 PM
    • #2
    • 21st Jan 18, 7:53 PM
    usuall the appeal is made by the KEEPER with the blue text template around day 26

    OR

    the keeper can wait for an NTK between day 29 and day 56

    the DRIVER and the OWNER are not identified by anyone at all
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 21st Jan 18, 8:02 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,307 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #3
    • 21st Jan 18, 8:02 PM
    • #3
    • 21st Jan 18, 8:02 PM
    look at other indigo - railway cases on this sub group , all will be relieved as to your actions
    • jac265
    • By jac265 16th Feb 18, 9:35 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    jac265
    • #4
    • 16th Feb 18, 9:35 AM
    • #4
    • 16th Feb 18, 9:35 AM
    So keeper has now received Overdue Penalty Notice to Owner from PCN Admin centre with 28 days to appeal to 'ipaymypcn.net' . the keeper shall use the usual arguments regarding 'railway land' and POFa etc but i have one question - does the keeper refer to payment made for original ticket by the 'driver' or not? also The notice refers to a right to an appeal with POLA - I thought Indigo had withdrawn this?
    many thanks.
    I shall also be writing to my MP, the DVLA and the BPA.
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 16th Feb 18, 10:26 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 186 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #5
    • 16th Feb 18, 10:26 AM
    • #5
    • 16th Feb 18, 10:26 AM
    So keeper has now received Overdue Penalty Notice to Owner from PCN Admin centre with 28 days to appeal to 'ipaymypcn.net' . the keeper shall use the usual arguments regarding 'railway land' and POFa etc but i have one question - does the keeper refer to payment made for original ticket by the 'driver' or not? also The notice refers to a right to an appeal with POLA - I thought Indigo had withdrawn this?
    many thanks.
    I shall also be writing to my MP, the DVLA and the BPA.
    Originally posted by jac265

    Sounds like you know the drill. Get past the 6 month prosecution deadline and do not reveal the driver/owner.

    When appealing make sure you appeal as Reg Keeper. They try this dirty trick to identify the keeper as the owner, as the owner has some (highly questionable) liability under the byelaws. I would raise the issue in the appeal, stating you reply as Registered Keeper, not as Owner.

    You can mention that that you believe 'the Driver' attempted to pay, check records for incorrect reg, blah blah. They will not likely accept it, and personally, if you were the Driver (don't confirm on here), I would avoid anything that could lead to inference that you were the Driver, e.g. by knowing what the Driver did in terms of getting a letter wrong, etc. You never know though, maybe they will accept that perfectly fair and sensible reason.

    There will be no POPLA, but why would you think Indigo, a multinational parking firm, would take 2 minutes to change their template letters to try and save themselves hassle? Don't credit them with any intelligence. Don't mention POPLA in your initial appeal, then you can waste a good month demanding it after they reject your appeal (uses up more time). They will continue to fob you off, but perhaps suggest that they provide another form of ADR which they meet the costs for, I'm sure they won't take you up on that offer!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Feb 18, 7:17 PM
    • 57,538 Posts
    • 71,119 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 16th Feb 18, 7:17 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Feb 18, 7:17 PM
    So keeper has now received Overdue Penalty Notice to Owner from PCN Admin centre with 28 days to appeal to 'ipaymypcn.net' . the keeper shall use the usual arguments regarding 'railway land' and POFa etc but i have one question - does the keeper refer to payment made for original ticket by the 'driver' or not? also The notice refers to a right to an appeal with POLA - I thought Indigo had withdrawn this?
    many thanks.

    I shall also be writing to my MP, the DVLA and the BPA.
    Originally posted by jac265
    Make sure you remind the DVLA that they were told by Indigo that they were NOT getting DVLA data, not making keeper enquiries for these cases...we know that they are using ZZPS to do exactly that.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 16th Feb 18, 7:20 PM
    • 1,287 Posts
    • 1,742 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #7
    • 16th Feb 18, 7:20 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Feb 18, 7:20 PM
    by using a debt collector to get details they (indigo) are not having to tell porky pies to the DVLA
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Feb 18, 7:41 PM
    • 57,538 Posts
    • 71,119 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 16th Feb 18, 7:41 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Feb 18, 7:41 PM
    But they ARE telling lies if they led the DVLA to believe that they were not getting keeper data for these byelaws cases. That's certainly what the DVLA email someone showed, said the DVLA believed.

    Using a contractor debt collector to get data is the same as them getting it, the KADOE says something about the fact that the AOS member is the party responsible if they get a third party to get data.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 16th Feb 18, 8:41 PM
    • 1,287 Posts
    • 1,742 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #9
    • 16th Feb 18, 8:41 PM
    • #9
    • 16th Feb 18, 8:41 PM
    yup , however kodoe volumes do not show indigo as getting info , due to low numbers compared to cases




    zzps seem low as well considering the number of companies they work for , no specific link zzps/indigo ?

    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Feb 18, 9:09 PM
    • 57,538 Posts
    • 71,119 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Odd, because we are seeing ZZPS sending letters out in all the Indigo byelaws cases, saying that they got the keeper's data from the DVLA. The data Indigo (allegedly) told the DVLA they are not getting.

    That's all OK with the DVLA and the BPA, is it?

    Wonder what MPs will make of it?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 16th Feb 18, 9:23 PM
    • 1,287 Posts
    • 1,742 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    DR+/indigo are not claiming to be getting info "on behalf of" indigo , I cannot see it listed? however they must be very naughty in Slough (indigo/slough) and free NHS trusts
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • jac265
    • By jac265 5th Mar 18, 2:32 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    jac265
    Thank you fo all of your comments. I have drafted an email in response to the overdue penalty to owner as set out below.
    Please let me know if you have any comments. Thank you.

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I have received your Overdue Penalty Notice to Owner dated Xxxx 2018 relating to Penalty Notice Number: XXXX

    You state that the offence is in breach of Byelaw 14 and was failing to display a valid ticket or voucher. According to my understanding, this is not a Byelaw offence and, in any event, if payment was made by phone which is a legitimate method of payment for parking then there would be nothing to display. Please direct me to the specific paragraph in the legislation that confirms such an offence.

    You state that the penalty notice is an offer to avoid prosecution. As this is an offered contract I assume that if it is not accepted then a charge will not be payable. Please confirm that this is the case.

    The car park in question is on railway land and therefore not ‘relevant land’ for the purposes of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 and therefore there is no keeper liability. Only the driver can be liable and I am not legally obliged to divulge the driver’s identity.

    Your letter states that ‘You may be legally liable for this offence even if you were not the driver at the time’. The scope of the Railway Byelaws is limited to the railway land and therefore an ‘owner’ cannot be held liable for an alleged breach when there is no evidence that the owner has been there as this would be ‘ultra vires’. Please explain the grounds on which the owner is held liable for the charge.

    You state that the vehicle could be clamped or removed in respect of ‘any unpaid penalty notices outstanding for the same VRM’. Clause 54(1)(a)of POFA bans the use of wheel clamps without lawful authority. Railway byelaws rely on the Transport Act 2000 as their enabling legislation and that Act makes no reference to clamping. Furthermore, the Byelaws state that clamping can only be used for a ‘breach’ of a Byelaw not an alleged breach. The defendant would have to be found guilty of the breach by a Magistrates Court before clamping could be used. Please direct me to the legislation on which your statement relies.

    Accordingly I decline your offer of payment and request that you close this matter or take action against the driver of the vehicle at the time should their identity be known to you.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 6th Mar 18, 10:17 AM
    • 2,516 Posts
    • 3,074 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Please direct me to the legislation on which your statement relies. ... and were you directed to make this misleading statement by Indigo (full legal name here) or is this your invention?
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 6th Mar 18, 10:59 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 186 Thanks
    financerulez
    I would refer to it as a Notice to Keeper regardless of what they've called the letter. Owner has questionable liability in byelaws, Keeper has none. Why do them the favour of confirming you're the Owner when there is no way they can know that or find it out?
    • jac265
    • By jac265 6th Mar 18, 12:21 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    jac265
    Yes good points thank you. In fact I may remove the paragraph on the questionable liability of the owner and save it for my next letter!
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 6th Mar 18, 12:40 PM
    • 1,287 Posts
    • 1,742 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    Yes good points thank you. In fact I may remove the paragraph on the questionable liability of the owner and save it for my next letter!
    Originally posted by jac265


    hang on

    indigo / zzps speak "!!!!!!!!" ,


    just take your time , 6 mths is the goal
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • jac265
    • By jac265 20th Mar 18, 1:46 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    jac265
    Thanks everyone. So my appeal was unsurprisingly, rejected by ZZPS on the grounds that Railway Byelaw 14 (4) (i) makes an owner liable whether the driver or not. They gave me another 2 weeks to pay up which expires this week. so i am going to ask for a POPLA code which I know they will refuse and then wait for the solicitors letters. My concern however is their threat to clamp - the car is parked regularly at the station. Has anyone heard of a car being clamped recently for unpaid penalty notices? I know it is questionable whether they have lawful authority to do so but I suspect that won't stop them!
    • ampersand
    • By ampersand 20th Mar 18, 2:01 PM
    • 8,428 Posts
    • 32,726 Thanks
    ampersand
    It would be good to entice more made-up garbage from them, re:which local authority, police authority or named functionary of the DVLA intends carrying out clamping.

    Here's a tale:
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/22/southern-rail-trials-wheel-clamping-scheme-in-station-car-parks
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    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 20th Mar 18, 2:05 PM
    • 2,516 Posts
    • 3,074 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    ZZPS will do absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. SO you keep asking them questions to get it to 6 months, then tell them to FRO

    ASk them about the scope of the byelaws, and whether they cover the entire UK or jus trailway grounds. Given the owner may never hae set fot on the gruonds o fthe railway, what regualtion entitles them to alter teh scope of the railway byelaws, did the PPC tell them this, or are they just making this up themselves and hoping you wont notice?

    For clamping - absoluitely ultra vires. Ask them what part of the byelaws enabling legislation allows clampning, and what exempts railway land from POFA2012. You require specific refernce to the legislation allowing clamping, noting that the byelaws themsvels cannot override the primary legislation that is POFA2012.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Mar 18, 2:08 PM
    • 57,538 Posts
    • 71,119 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Has anyone heard of a car being clamped recently for unpaid penalty notices?
    Nope, last time when NCP tried it they got their fingers severely burnt. In costs and everything else in the Mayhook case I think it was around £100,000 NCP had to pay.

    After all, how do they know it's the same driver and even, what if you'd sold the car in the meantime! These issues are significant, as is the fact the Dept for Transport is looking closer at the industry than before...this would not make good publicity for a firm already IMHO universally detested, for what they did to the nurses in Cardiff.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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