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  • matty_yorks
    • #2
    • 1st Nov 10, 12:25 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Nov 10, 12:25 PM
    The increases mean that a family of four holidaying in New York from this week will pay a total of 240 in APD, with economy seats.

    Also, a pair of gap-year students travelling to Australia, for example, and flying in premium economy class will pay 170 each, the highest APD rate - equal to the charge business and first class passengers pay.
    gap-year student flying premium economy is an oxymoron, come on, whoever wrote it can do better if they want to tug at heart strings.

    and the top figure of 240 quid is slightly misdirecting, as it bears no relativity to the rest of the cost of the ticket. It's an increase of 120p a week for an annual summer holiday for the family, which can easily saved by going on this site.

    That wasn't too taxing was it?!
    • KTF
    • By KTF 1st Nov 10, 12:34 PM
    • 4,725 Posts
    • 1,939 Thanks
    KTF
    • #3
    • 1st Nov 10, 12:34 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Nov 10, 12:34 PM
    The increases mean that a family of four holidaying in New York from this week will pay a total of 240 in APD, with economy seats.
    Also, a pair of gap-year students travelling to Australia, for example, and flying in premium economy class will pay 170 each, the highest APD rate - equal to the charge business and first class passengers pay.
    What would these 2 examples be paying previously and what is the difference. Quoting the new figures is meaningless if there is nothing to compare them to.
    • poppy10
    • By poppy10 1st Nov 10, 12:39 PM
    • 6,164 Posts
    • 7,463 Thanks
    poppy10
    • #4
    • 1st Nov 10, 12:39 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Nov 10, 12:39 PM
    The increases mean that a family of four holidaying in New York from this week will pay a total of 240 in APD, with economy seats.
    Whereas before the tax rise, they would have paid 180 in APD.
    I don't think anyone is going to cancel their annual family holiday over an extra 60, split between four people, when they're spending 1600 on flights and probably the same again on accommodation and other expenses. The country needs to hike taxes and cut spending to balance the books, and this rise seems fair enough to me.
    • Frozenace
    • By Frozenace 1st Nov 10, 1:00 PM
    • 245 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    Frozenace
    • #5
    • 1st Nov 10, 1:00 PM
    • #5
    • 1st Nov 10, 1:00 PM
    No wonder inflation is so high.

    VAT rise!

    APD rise!

    TAX rise!
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 1st Nov 10, 1:06 PM
    • 7,082 Posts
    • 3,918 Thanks
    chattychappy
    • #6
    • 1st Nov 10, 1:06 PM
    • #6
    • 1st Nov 10, 1:06 PM
    Predictably the media focus is on British "family holidays" - there seems to be an underlying assumption that "businessmen" are rich (they deserve to pay more, like all those "greedy bankers") and nobody else matters.

    Well, UK plc needs to get the business done. This means visiting customers, visiting trade shows etc. Contrary to popular belief, most business travellers fly economy. My company never paid for me to fly in anything other than Economy and for us travel on business was always a big decision because of the financial outlay. We were competing with Germans, French and other Europeans when doing international business.

    Also this is a tax on all flights leaving the UK - including people returning from the UK. So it will apply to tourists coming to the UK as well as foreign business travellers. Unlike UK residents, they have a choice. They can go elsewhere in Europe. Add to that the cost of visas for non-EU residents, many Asian business travellers I know just get a Schengen visa and stick to visiting mainland Europe. I suppose most people in the UK won't care about that - the fewer foreigners coming to the UK the better.

    Well very disappointed that the new UK gov has continued with these "hate" taxes. Nothing to do with the environment (they far outweigh the cost of carbon credits and aren't spent on those anyway).

    By the way, they are worse than they look. They only apply to outbound trips. If all governments had the same attitude, the overall tax bill would be much worse.

    Very happy to see the government cutting spending. But insofar as it still needs to raise taxes, then this isn't the way to do it IMHO.
    Last edited by chattychappy; 01-11-2010 at 1:08 PM.
    • Paul_Herring
    • By Paul_Herring 1st Nov 10, 1:21 PM
    • 6,776 Posts
    • 3,412 Thanks
    Paul_Herring
    • #7
    • 1st Nov 10, 1:21 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Nov 10, 1:21 PM
    This week's rise in Air Passenger Duty (APD) airport departure tax will make family holidays "unaffordable for many", Sir Richard Branson's airline Virgin Atlantic warned.
    Isn't that the sorta point of it? Since the APD is seen as a 'green tax' and green taxes are to encourage people to produce less carbon dioxide, the fewer people flying mean that the tax is working, no?

    Not that I agree with green taxes such as this to being with...
    Conjugating the verb 'to be":
    -o I am humble -o You are attention seeking -o She is Nadine Dorries
    • JasonLVC
    • By JasonLVC 1st Nov 10, 2:04 PM
    • 15,818 Posts
    • 42,490 Thanks
    JasonLVC
    • #8
    • 1st Nov 10, 2:04 PM
    • #8
    • 1st Nov 10, 2:04 PM
    The airline industry is immune to a number of taxes that other industries cannot avoid.

    Flight tickets are zero rated for VAT purposes, so cusotmer pay no VAT on their flights but the airline can still reclaim all the VAT it incurs as a business.

    Airline fuel is generally not subject to fuel/excise duties either.

    Other European countries have a form of flight tax, Austria, Spain, Italy and Germany soon. All under the guise of "green" of course, but it is what it is, another tax revenue raising exercise....so its nothing unusual to have this sort of tax levied on flights.
    Anger ruins joy, it steals the goodness of my mind. Forces me to say terrible things. Overcoming anger brings peace of mind, a mind without regret. If I overcome anger, I will be delightful and loved by everyone.
  • SurfBowlSC
    • #9
    • 1st Nov 10, 2:58 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Nov 10, 2:58 PM
    Maybe families just need to be a bit more realistic and look closer to home for their holidays!

    What's to stop them using a ferry or the Eurostar?!
    Take the car and drive some of it. My best holiday memory is going to the World Cup in 1998, driving through Western France and camping.

    We have our main family holiday right here in the UK.
    Last year we took the Eurostar to Paris for Disneyland and we're doing the same in March.
    It doesn't even enter our minds to book a flight anywhere for our holiday.......
  • mmillie
    Shock horror! People who fly are expected to pay a relatively minor amount of tax on the fuel that is used (when compared to the tax paid on fuel for other means of transport).

    All that is shocking about this is that the way it is calculated means there is no disincentive to airlines running empty planes - in effect the airlines get a tax break for flying with fewer passengers. Put the tax on the whole flight instead, and let the airline choose how to split it out amongst the passengers. But that wouldn't suit the airlines would it! Honestly MSE, stop quoting airline press releases as news.

    Martin

    Martin
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 1st Nov 10, 4:30 PM
    • 7,082 Posts
    • 3,918 Thanks
    chattychappy
    Flight tickets are zero rated for VAT purposes, so cusotmer pay no VAT on their flights but the airline can still reclaim all the VAT it incurs as a business.
    Originally posted by JasonLVC
    True, no VAT. But then they charge APD to the consumer - which often works out more than what the VAT would be if standard rated (granted it wouldn't be always). BUT, unlike VAT, the APD levied is not reclaimable by VAT registered businesses - who will then charge VAT again on their outputs.

    It is the effect of tax on businesses and foreign visitors that concerns me, though it's not the focus in the media.
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 1st Nov 10, 4:44 PM
    • 7,082 Posts
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    chattychappy
    Shock horror! People who fly are expected to pay a relatively minor amount of tax on the fuel that is used
    Originally posted by mmillie
    Actually if it was on the fuel, it wouldn't be so bad. Fuel is only part of the input cost to a ticket. Aircraft, crew, airport facilities, security, IT networks, agents etc are also significant. Hence when fuel prices more than doubled, air tickets rose more modestly (though admittedly forward buying smoothed things a bit and profits were squeezed).

    For the time being, AFAIK treaties prevent fuel being taxed or VAT being levied. But APD seems disproportionate and blunt (as you say planes flying empty don't pay it). Also doesn't apply to cargo!
    • bristol_pilot
    • By bristol_pilot 1st Nov 10, 4:51 PM
    • 2,203 Posts
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    bristol_pilot
    If a family of four can afford to holiday in the Bahamas they can afford the extra tax which is less than the cost of a tank of petrol in the family car these days. Nothing to panic about.
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 1st Nov 10, 5:18 PM
    • 7,082 Posts
    • 3,918 Thanks
    chattychappy
    If a family of four can afford to holiday in the Bahamas they can afford the extra tax which is less than the cost of a tank of petrol in the family car these days. Nothing to panic about.
    Originally posted by bristol_pilot
    What has the cost of the extra tax on a holiday in the Bahamas got to do with filling a car with petrol?
    • Paul_Herring
    • By Paul_Herring 1st Nov 10, 5:28 PM
    • 6,776 Posts
    • 3,412 Thanks
    Paul_Herring
    What has the cost of the extra tax on a holiday in the Bahamas got to do with filling a car with petrol?
    Originally posted by chattychappy
    They're apparently similar orders of magnitude.
    Conjugating the verb 'to be":
    -o I am humble -o You are attention seeking -o She is Nadine Dorries
    • DigForVictory
    • By DigForVictory 1st Nov 10, 7:04 PM
    • 9,291 Posts
    • 31,004 Thanks
    DigForVictory
    The air tax hike will make little difference to us - the cost of renewing 5 passports is 300 & that is keeping us (& our holiday money!) in the UK.
    Worrying about discouraging incoming visitors though - a sort of hidden ESTA in reverse?
  • sarflee
    Agree with much of the above! I am certainly not going to lose any sleep over a student on a gap year or a family of four holidaying in the Bahamas having to pay a few extra pounds for, what in my world would be, a luxury holiday. It's not like it's an every day expense that can't be avoided. Now the increase in food/petrol is a different matter! A family not being able to eat now that it worthy of the headlines.
  • welsh_79
    the tax issue
    can i just ask, as im not too clear on this ok as me and the girlfriend are going to oz next year but have already paid in advance for our tickets and insurance etc about two months ago, would we incur any extra charges now???
    • Mobeer
    • By Mobeer 1st Nov 10, 10:51 PM
    • 1,778 Posts
    • 4,438 Thanks
    Mobeer
    I have to wonder, given Russia is in 2 separate bands, why could the same not be done with the US.
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 1st Nov 10, 11:44 PM
    • 7,082 Posts
    • 3,918 Thanks
    chattychappy
    can i just ask, as im not too clear on this ok as me and the girlfriend are going to oz next year but have already paid in advance for our tickets and insurance etc about two months ago, would we incur any extra charges now???
    Originally posted by welsh_79
    The tax is not on tickets, it is on departures and is by departure date. The airline should have been aware of the rise and included it in the ticket cost. (It was announced over a year ago.) Most airlines have as a condition of their ticketing that you will make good any increase in tax - but as I say, they should have already included this so they shouldn't come back to you.

    The previous rise was announced at fairly short notice causing a right 'ole mess where tickets had already been issued. Airlines had to either try and collect tax from passengers at the airport or absorb it themselves.
    Last edited by chattychappy; 02-11-2010 at 12:15 AM.
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