Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Paul-T951
    • By Paul-T951 16th Jan 18, 8:44 PM
    • 13Posts
    • 9Thanks
    Paul-T951
    What to do next?
    • #1
    • 16th Jan 18, 8:44 PM
    What to do next? 16th Jan 18 at 8:44 PM
    Hi, I’ve read the newbies thread but am not sure what to do next. A PCN was stuck to my partner’s car window in a hospital car park but was ignored until recently when a NTK was received. The NTK was received 96 days after the NTD - far longer than the required 56 days. We responded with the following e-mail:

    As registered keeper I wish to appeal this PCN. The notice to keeper arrived 96 days after the alleged event. The alleged event was documented as taking place on 05/10/17. The Notice to keeper was dated 04/01/18 and was received on 08/01/18. As members of the BPA you comply with POFA 12 which requires that if you wish to hold the keeper liable the notice must be served not earlier than 28 days after, and not later than 56 days after the service of that notice to driver. Therefore as keeper I am not liable for this charge. In addition, POFA states that the period the car was parked must be present in the notice to keeper, which was not included in this instance.

    For these reasons I must demand that this notice be cancelled.

    Yours faithfully


    The following note has now been received back:

    Good afternoon

    Thank you for your recent online submission.

    On this occasion, our client is not relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 to pursue this Parking Charge Notice. If you were not the driver of the vehicle at the the time of the event, Please provide the full name and address of the driver so that liability can be transferred.

    The account has been placed on hold for 14 days for your response.

    Yours sincerely


    What is the next course of action please? Hoping someone can help and apologies if I’ve missed something in the newbies thread.

    Many thanks,

    Paul
Page 2
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 9th Feb 18, 1:02 PM
    • 9,095 Posts
    • 8,809 Thanks
    The Deep
    Parliament are introducing a bill to stop these customers scamming people in hospital car parks, watch this

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and add to the fun by complaining in the strongest terms to your MP.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Paul-T951
    • By Paul-T951 11th Feb 18, 10:08 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Paul-T951
    Thanks for the advice, here is my proposed response, do you see any issues? Thanks in advance.


    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle which received this purported 'parking charge'. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. I am not liable for this PCN as the notice to keeper was received in excess of 56 days after the NTD was supposedly issued, in contravention of BPA code of practice, as clearly stated in previous correspondence. Under what grounds are you pursuing the keeper when the case is non POFA? I would also like to know under what lawful grounds you obtained my details from the DVLA, considering it is likely this request was made outside the 56 day time period.

    Should you fail to cancel this PCN immediately, I require the following information with your template rejection:

    1. Does your charge represent damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    2. Please provide dated photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract.
    3. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.

    I am alarmed by your contact and I do not give you consent to process any data relating to me, or this vehicle. I deny liability and will not respond to debt collectors. You must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA, and should you fail to respond accordingly, your company will be reported to the Information Commissioner.


    I would also like to draw your attention to the recent Hansard reading in the House of Commons, 2nd Feb 2018:

    "Poor signage, unreasonable terms, exorbitant fines, aggressive demands for payment and an opaque appeals process, together with some motorists being hit with a fine for just driving in and out of a car park without stopping, have no place in 21st-century Britain."

    Finally, it is my understanding that debt recovery cannot be started whilst an appeal is in progress; therefore Leeds Teaching Hospitals are in breach of the code of practice (section 22.6).


    I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and will also be making a formal complaint to your client landowner.

    As a current BPA member, send me a POPLA code.

    Yours faithfully,

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Feb 18, 10:13 PM
    • 56,350 Posts
    • 69,952 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You could add:

    ZZPS are warned that if you wilfully withhold a POPLA code on the spurious basis that my wording above is a template, and somehow 'not an appeal' in your sad little World of money-making from consumer victims, you will once again be reported to Steve Clark at the BPA.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • logician
    • By logician 11th Feb 18, 10:30 PM
    • 194 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    logician
    PCN Admin Centre is just a trading name of ZZPS Ltd; so your PCN hasn't passed to ZZPS.

    More importantly, debt recovery cannot be started whilst an appeal is in progress; therefore LTH are in breach of the Code of practice, (22.6 of the Code).
    Originally posted by Castle
    PCN Admin /ZZPS operate many back room functions for AOS members of the BPA and IPC.

    Technically speaking, they issued the Ntk and handled the appeal, therefore continuing to process this, adding on extra charges, it is ZZPS who are in breach of the COP.

    @ the OP - did the Ntk also include an Admin Fee, this is typical of PCN Admin Ntk's

    Write to ZZPS - pointing out that there is no legal requirement to name the driver and that the Ntk arrived out of time to comply with the requirements of keeper liability.

    Add that if they do not cancel the charge, you will make a formal complaint to the BPA and the DVLA for failing to provide a POPLA code after a valid appeal.
    • Paul-T951
    • By Paul-T951 13th Feb 18, 11:50 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Paul-T951
    Next Update:

    So I've received this e-mail:

    Good Morning,

    Thank you for your email.


    We refer your email dated 11/02/2018, which we are treating as a formal section 10 Notice (“the Notice”) under the Data Protection Act (“the Act”).

    Please accept this email as our formal acknowledgement and response to the Notice.

    You have provided no justification for the Notice. The processing of your data is warranted.


    In any event, section 10(1) of the Act does not apply in circumstances where Schedule 2, paragraphs 1 to 4 of the Act are met, accordingly we are permitted to continue to process your data at this stage.


    If this is not clear, we suggest you seek legal advice.



    Please note the time to appeal this Parking Charge Notice has passed and as such no POPLA code will be issued.


    We have previously responded to your online submission made on the 13/01/2018.


    Regards

    Help! What should be the next step?

    Thank you
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Feb 18, 11:56 AM
    • 36,573 Posts
    • 82,840 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Do you have a PoPLA code yet? If not, complain to the BPA and your MP. Access to alternative dispute resolution is yours by right, as decreed in the ADR Act 2015.

    These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

    Quote the bit in bold to the BPA and ask what they intend to do about this rogue parking company, and rogue debt collector, to change the attitude of MPs and the motoring public.

    You should also point out the above comments to the hospital management and PALS.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 13-02-2018 at 11:58 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Feb 18, 12:05 PM
    • 56,350 Posts
    • 69,952 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Please note the time to appeal this Parking Charge Notice has passed and as such no POPLA code will be issued.
    I did tell you!

    You could add:

    ZZPS are warned that if you wilfully withhold a POPLA code on the spurious basis that my wording above is a template, and somehow 'not an appeal' in your sad little World of money-making from consumer victims, you will once again be reported to Steve Clark at the BPA.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad

    Steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

    ZZPS need banning, IMHO. Unfit to be handling appeals, from the cases we see here.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Paul-T951
    • By Paul-T951 13th Feb 18, 12:14 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Paul-T951
    Thanks, I'll go ahead and e-mail Steve - I did put that sentance (minus the 'sad little money-making' bit!) in my response. I assume from your responses that I shouldn't reply to ZZPS now, but take this to the BPA and LTH?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Feb 18, 12:16 PM
    • 56,350 Posts
    • 69,952 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Take it to the BPA. Failure to provide a keeper with a POPLA code, ZZPS yet AGAIN pretending that a keeper appealing to a NTK is appealing ''too late'' (these are repeated lies from scumbags who drag the BPA further down into the mire).

    Show Steve a link to this thread, I make no apology for the 'sad little money-making' factual sentence.

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Castle
    • By Castle 13th Feb 18, 12:24 PM
    • 1,649 Posts
    • 2,220 Thanks
    Castle
    PCN Admin /ZZPS operate many back room functions for AOS members of the BPA and IPC.

    Technically speaking, they issued the Ntk and handled the appeal, therefore continuing to process this, adding on extra charges, it is ZZPS who are in breach of the COP.
    Originally posted by logician
    Technically, it's LTH who are the PPC in this matter; so they are responsible for any breaches by their agents/subcontractors. (Section 15 of the BPA code).
    • Paul-T951
    • By Paul-T951 23rd Feb 18, 3:06 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Paul-T951
    Further Update:
    We have written to the BPA and are waiting to hear back. Today we received another letter which we've sent to the BPA, but posting it here for information.

    We wrote to you previously about this PCN, and according to us, this debt remains unpaid.
    Our next course of action is to pass this account to QDR Solicitors Limited. We would prefer to get to the bottom of this with you, without the need to use lawyers. However, we are duty bound to advise you that if this does get passed to QDR Solicitors Limited, the balance owing will increase by £30 plus VAT.
    A recent Supreme Court ruling (ParkingEye -v- Beavis) has confirmed that a Parking Charge issued on private land:
    is enforceable; and
    the Parking Charge does not breach the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

    If this remains unpaid, in the event of legal action taking place, court fees and solicitors costs, along with statutory interest, could be added to the amount owed. The legal process is not simple and if you need advice, places where this can be sought are on the reverse of this letter.
    It is in your interests to either get in touch or pay this account and we again invite you to do so within seven days of you receiving this letter; if the account progresses to our solicitors, we will not be able to help you.

    Yours sincerely
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 23rd Feb 18, 3:31 PM
    • 9,095 Posts
    • 8,809 Thanks
    The Deep
    A recent Supreme Court ruling (ParkingEye -v- Beavis) has confirmed that a Parking Charge issued on private land:
    is enforceable; and


    Only in certain circumstances

    the Parking Charge does not breach the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

    Act no longer law, now Consumer Rights Act

    I would complain to the SRA that their letter is misleading.

    https://www.sra.org.uk/home/home.page
    Last edited by The Deep; 23-02-2018 at 3:33 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Paul-T951
    • By Paul-T951 21st Mar 18, 9:10 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Paul-T951
    Hi all, so after referring this to the BPA I have now had a response and it's not great. Gemma at the BPA has basically stated that the appeal has been rejected and if we want to continue the appeal we would need to move to POPLA. The response from ZZPS is as follows:

    Thank you for your appeal against the above Parking Charge Notice (!!!8220;PCN!!!8221. We have carefully considered your appeal however on this occasion; the appeal has been rejected for the following reason: The vehicle was parked in an area of the car park where a valid permit must be displayed with no valid permit on display. This is a breach of the Terms and Conditions of the site which are clearly displayed on the signage. It is the motorist!!!8217;s responsibility to adhere to the Terms and Conditions of the site when using the car park. Our client has confirmed this PCN has been issued correctly.



    For your further information, in the case of ParkingEye Limited !!!8211;v- Beavis the court of appeal unambiguously clarified the common law's position on both the nature and enforceability of parking charges. It is now clear that a parking charge having the predominant purpose or intention to deter is not sufficient in itself to invalidate the charge so long as it is not extravagant and unconscionable; thus this parking charge is fully enforceable under the rules about contractual penalties. The Court made reference to indirect losses that parking contraventions can cause to operators, the need for large charges to deter breaches, the benefit to the community that such deterrence can create and the intention of Parliament for such charges to be enforceable. Following the ruling in Beavis, it is without doubt that your parking charge is wholly valid and fully enforceable. You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and therefore you now have various options: You can pay the total amount due as shown above within the next 14 days from the date of this letter. !!!9642; Call us on 01932 918098 !!!9642; Pay securely online at www.ipaymypcn.net !!!9642; Send a payment to the address noted above (please quote the PCN Number on all payments) You can appeal to an Independent Appeals Service: POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) !!!9642; IMPORTANT NOTE: Should you decide to appeal to POPLA and your appeal is subsequently rejected, the option to pay a discounted amount will no longer be available and the full amount of the PCN will become due.


    If you decide to appeal to POPLA, you will need to visit their website, www.popla.co.uk; how to appeal (either online or by downloading the relevant forms) can be located via the website. If you are unable to access their website, please call us for further information on how to obtain the forms. Please ensure that your unique number as noted above is quoted on all correspondence to POPLA. You have 28 days from the date of this letter to exercise this option. Before making your appeal, you should read the guidance notes on the website. If you appeal to POPLA we will suspend recovery activity on the Parking Charge Notice until the appeal has been determined. By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services.org) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above. If you do not make payment or appeal, the outstanding PCN will be passed to our appointed debt collection agency for further action and all costs associated with this process will be added to the amount outstanding.


    So we could go to POPLA, but are now seriously contemplating just paying the £75 and getting it out of the way. What's the worst case scenario of appealing through POPLA? The case is basically that the NTK was received outside the specified 56 day time period, and that the correct information for POPLA appeal was not included from the start.


    Gemma at BPA has stated:



    Firstly, please accept my apologies for the delay in our response. We were waiting for further information from ZZPS in order to close the complaint.

    There appears to have been an error when dealing with your appeal and a formal rejection was not sent out. ZZPS have now confirmed the appeal will be rejected and a rejection letter will be sent to you. This will have the appropriate details for you to progress your appeal to POPLA !!!8211; the independent appeals service if you choose to. Please note you only have 28 days to appeal to POPLA from the date your appeal is rejected.

    I note from your email this morning, the rejection letter has already been received. The Notice to Keeper only has to be sent within the timeframes in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 if they intend to rely on the legislation.

    In view of the corrective action taken, I have closed the investigation. If you want to contest the charge further, we recommend you appeal to POPLA.

    Apologies for the long message!

    Thanks in advance

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Mar 18, 9:20 PM
    • 56,350 Posts
    • 69,952 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So we could go to POPLA, but are now seriously contemplating just paying the £75 and getting it out of the way.
    Don't be daft.

    issued by the hospital, Leeds teaching hospitals.
    And perfectly winnable at POPLA, certainly don't drag defeat from the jaws of victory!

    What's the worst case scenario of appealing through POPLA?
    Nothing, they will ask for the £75 again! And you still wouldn't have to pay.

    The case is basically that the NTK was received outside the specified 56 day time period
    Yes, and that WINS AT POPLA as long as the driver was never admitted.

    and that the correct information for POPLA appeal was not included from the start.
    Not really an appeal point.

    Please see the NEWBIES thread post #3 for the POPLA template points, there for you to use.

    Nearly won it now!! Final hurdle, and we've already given you a step up...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Paul-T951
    • By Paul-T951 22nd Mar 18, 9:26 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Paul-T951
    Thanks, that's put our minds at ease, will let you know how it goes!
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

102Posts Today

1,357Users online

Martin's Twitter