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    • SadHatter
    • By SadHatter 13th Jan 18, 2:20 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 3Thanks
    SadHatter
    Advice please: PCN from Civil Enforcement: car park terms recently changed
    • #1
    • 13th Jan 18, 2:20 PM
    Advice please: PCN from Civil Enforcement: car park terms recently changed 13th Jan 18 at 2:20 PM
    Hi All
    I have read through the Newbies FAQ etc. this site is a great resource. However, I would appreciate some further advice if possible.

    I received a PCN in the post yesterday alleging that I parked in a local car park last week where for years the free allowance was several hours. (The evidence is images with number plate).

    It is apparently now only 1 hour free parking- it must have changed the previous week. I am alleged to have stayed for 1 hour and 12 minutes.

    Anyway, I am seriously thinking about paying... reluctantly. The modified signs in the car park will probably be overlooked by most regulars, at least until the PCN(s) arrive.

    I think I understand the appeal process; i.e. appeal to ce-service, which gets rejected, obtain POPLA then appeal, but looking at the circumstances and recent appeal outcomes on the board, and considering the escalation of the charge from 60- 100, is that a good route to take in my situation?

    Any advice would be much appreciated!
    Last edited by SadHatter; 15-01-2018 at 12:29 AM.
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Jan 18, 2:43 PM
    • 7,694 Posts
    • 7,407 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #2
    • 13th Jan 18, 2:43 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Jan 18, 2:43 PM
    Just send the initial appeal unaltered from the NEWBIES FAQ thread.


    You might be interested to read condition 18.10 from the BPA's Code of Practice:
    18.10 Where there is a change in the terms and conditions that materially affects the motorist then you must make these terms and conditions clear on your signage. Where such changes impose liability where none previously existed then you must consider a transition to allow regular visitors to the site to adjust and familiarise themselves with the changes. Best practice would be the installation of additional/temporary signage at the entrance and throughout the site making it clear that new terms and conditions apply. This will ensure such that regular visitors who may be familiar with the previous terms become aware of the new ones.
    Do such temporary signs exist?

    If not, you may want to take many photos showing they don't.
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jan 18, 2:43 PM
    • 18,352 Posts
    • 23,239 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 13th Jan 18, 2:43 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Jan 18, 2:43 PM
    you have a minimum of 2 items in your favour

    1) grace periods , both before and after the parking event - clause #13 of the BPA CoP

    so if we assume 4 minutes to enter and park up and say 8 minutes to leave , its well within the grace periods allowed for parking (ie- they measured TIME ON SITE , not parking time)

    2) when terms and conditions change , the BPA CoP talks about this aspect and a bedding in period so customers get used to the changes and extra temporary signage should be there for a short time to warn people of these changes

    I suggest you download the BPA CoP and read it

    there will be other appeal points too, like no landowner contract , not the same as BEAVIS etc

    I would use the blue text appeal from the NEWBIES sticky thread but add a clause #13 paragraph to it

    adapt this template I rewrote in post #4 , removing the YOU HAVE FAILED line and altering the lines above and below to one addition and not two

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73242562

    appeal as keeper, not as driver , do not reveal who was driving for now
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 18, 3:33 PM
    • 18,003 Posts
    • 28,495 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 13th Jan 18, 3:33 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Jan 18, 3:33 PM
    In addition to the above advice I would write to the car park owners/managing agents asking them for written confirmation of the date when the new time limits came into force.

    You might also enquire as to why such a dramatic reduction in time has been introduced (it may come in handy at some stage).

    If you don!!!8217;t already have them, you need to get some clear photos of the signage distribution around the site and the wording of the signs, particularly if different signs have varying wording.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • SadHatter
    • By SadHatter 13th Jan 18, 4:25 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    SadHatter
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 18, 4:25 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 18, 4:25 PM
    Thanks everyone. There are no temporary signs. The current signs appear to be the same signs that previously stated that longer limit. The signs at the car par entrances do not appear to have changed- i.e."Free parking, terms and conditions apply- see car park signs for terms and conditions." This is probably very new- a 2018 change.
    Last edited by SadHatter; 15-01-2018 at 12:30 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jan 18, 5:40 PM
    • 58,461 Posts
    • 71,972 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 18, 5:40 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 18, 5:40 PM
    Then it breaches the code of practice. And contract law (Consumer Rights Act).

    You cannot be expected to double check existing (familiar) written t&cs in any contract 'just in case' they've changed!

    Imagine if every time you switched on your TV or phone you were expected to go and re-read small print to check your contractual terms have not changed, even though nothing alerts you to check, and no-one would reasonably expect to.


    I am seriously thinking about paying... reluctantly.
    Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...it's CEL for the love of God!

    They are so beatable it's laughable. Every time!

    Use the NEWBIES thread blue writing template online to CEL, yes the one that says the signs are unclear. No adding or changing ANYTHING.

    Trust me.

    They will fall over and be blown away, like a feather in the wind. NO ADDING WORDS, NO GIVING AWAY THE DRIVER.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 13-01-2018 at 5:44 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • SadHatter
    • By SadHatter 13th Jan 18, 11:00 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    SadHatter
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 18, 11:00 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 18, 11:00 PM
    Many thanks!
    So I think I need to use the one below, but does it matter that I have not mentioned the lack of temporary signage, and will this then prompt them to send me the POPLA code? I guess the POPLA appeal is the point at which the PCN hopefully gets cancelled? I noticed in reading the decisions thread POPLA appeals are apparently not always upheld(?)

    Anyway, thank you all- this is a very helpful forum.

    "Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge, mainly for the following two reasons.

    Also Clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies here and this appeal, any subsequent appeal and also any court case will have this as a prominent argument as to why this invoice should be cancelled.

    Should you have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than 250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully
    ..."
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Jan 18, 11:07 PM
    • 7,694 Posts
    • 7,407 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 18, 11:07 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 18, 11:07 PM
    Yes, that's fine. Send it.
    .
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 13th Jan 18, 11:10 PM
    • 35,908 Posts
    • 20,149 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 18, 11:10 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 18, 11:10 PM
    Many thanks!
    So I think I need to use the one below, but does it matter that I have not mentioned the lack of temporary signage, and will this then prompt them to send me the POPLA code?"
    Originally posted by SadHatter
    See #6!


    ("No changing anything")


    After sending the template you either get the appeal accepted or rejected


    Rejection gets a POPLA code
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 14th Jan 18, 8:51 AM
    • 3,010 Posts
    • 4,578 Thanks
    fisherjim
    You fell into a scammers trap and are considering paying?

    You should also realise that the "escalation" of the charge is actually to scam you into paying up quickly and shutting up!

    PPC's are not there to manage car parks, they are not reasonable, they are just there to make what ever they can however they can, please don't feed the monster!
    • SadHatter
    • By SadHatter 14th Jan 18, 2:08 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    SadHatter
    Okay, I'll do as suggested. Thanks for all the advice.
    I expect that I'll be back at the POPLA stage :- )
    • SadHatter
    • By SadHatter 27th Jan 18, 12:58 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    SadHatter
    The parking enforcement notice has been cancelled.
    Thank you all for the advice.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Jan 18, 3:24 PM
    • 58,461 Posts
    • 71,972 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Great stuff, same as this one today:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5775204

    Same as always with CEL, we know what we are doing.

    Much easier than you feared, wasn't it?!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 27-01-2018 at 3:29 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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