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  • FIRST POST
    • nigeld1982
    • By nigeld1982 13th Jan 18, 9:58 AM
    • 5Posts
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    nigeld1982
    Penalty Charge Notice - please help
    • #1
    • 13th Jan 18, 9:58 AM
    Penalty Charge Notice - please help 13th Jan 18 at 9:58 AM
    Hi All, brand new to this so hopefully i am following the correct rules in creating a new thread and not over stepping the mark.

    I need some help around a PCN. This was issued in a private residential, gated carpark in December. The space comes as part of the apartment my partner owns,

    The PCN came from the District Enforcement (DE), company.

    The charge states that the fine was given as the parking warden couldn't see a valid or displayed permit.

    The permit was displayed in a side window and they have failed to provide photographic evidence of this, just photos of the front and rear of the car.

    They have sent several poorly written letters, none have been signed and mostly they are ambiguous to say the least.

    Unfortunately we missed on the back of one page the option to appeal to the IAS. Our fault but we feel this was very sneaky given that it didn't say page 1/2 or 2/2.

    The next step we have got now is court action, apparently, We clearly don't want to do this as it will be potentially lots more money, however the space is ours to use and the badge was displayed in the car as per the site signage. The warden chose to not take photos of the sides of the car.

    Can anyone help with this? We have kept all correspondence. The next step we have got is to contact the building management company when they are next open on Monday (15/01) to talk to them about it. Having read a previous thread i understand that they contract to DE and could theoretically request it is cancelled given that there is no loss on their part.

    My biggest question is the lack of evidence provided.

    Please can someone help with this, we have until 16 January 2018 to pay the fine (£100) or face court action. My partner is heavily pregnant and we don't need the hassle they are providing.

    Many thanks in advance.
    Last edited by nigeld1982; 13-01-2018 at 10:00 AM. Reason: typo
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 13th Jan 18, 10:03 AM
    • 35,896 Posts
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    Quentin
    • #2
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:03 AM
    • #2
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:03 AM
    Everyone is politely asked to read up on this in the Newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum before starting a new thread

    Go there now to see advice on how to deal with this letter as well as defending a court claim

    (Even had you appealed to the IAS it would have been futile).
    • nigeld1982
    • By nigeld1982 13th Jan 18, 10:15 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    nigeld1982
    • #3
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:15 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:15 AM
    HI Quentin, thanks for your reply, I have read through various other posts and also the FAQs as well as the articles on the 'website proper'.

    I cannot find an answer to my question though. I suppose i should have summarised that i am looking ti find out if there is anything i can do without court action.

    The lack of evidence is alarming and i keep coming across threads with regards to NTK, which is great but not relevant to my case. The car was parked in the space allocated to the apartment, with the permit displayed as per site signage, and yet the PCN was issued anyway.
    Last edited by nigeld1982; 13-01-2018 at 10:26 AM. Reason: re-info
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 13th Jan 18, 10:27 AM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,308 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #4
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:27 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:27 AM
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

    had you have read this , you would noticev there are 2 different appeal letters , one for a trade assoc called the BPA and one for one called the IPC
    the reason you have not got a POPLa code is that only members of the BPA give codes

    http://www.bmpa.eu/company_guide_d_to_i.html
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jan 18, 10:39 AM
    • 17,996 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:39 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:39 AM
    Please can someone help with this, we have until 16 January 2018 to pay the fine (£100) or face court action.
    Are you sure it actually says that? Is there a !!!8216;may!!!8217;, or a !!!8216;possibly!!!8217;, or a !!!8216;potentially!!!8217;, or a !!!8216;we might consider!!!8217; in the sentence in their letter? Or are they giving you an absolute either/or?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Jan 18, 10:55 AM
    • 9,500 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:55 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 18, 10:55 AM
    What does the lease say (exact words) about parking?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 13th Jan 18, 11:14 AM
    • 4,158 Posts
    • 5,895 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 18, 11:14 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 18, 11:14 AM
    What does the lease say (exact words) about parking?
    Originally posted by The Deep

    That is absolutely critical


    In most residential cases, the flat/property comes with an allocated parking space/rights to use communal areas for parking etc etc.
    then a management company will come along and appoint a PPC to 'run' the car park.
    The PPc will then try and impose additional. unreasonable conditions upon the owners of the parking spaces such as paying money for not displaying a permit that isnt required under the lease/freehold etc.
    Do you need a permit to flush the lavotory after 10pm, or face a Pooing charge notice (P.C.N) of £100 ( £70 early payment discount)
    would you accept one should such a thing be suggested?
    No? then why accept a third party trying to impose something on your parking space?


    Again check your lease, the management company could be on a sticky wicket, as they will be jointly liable for the actions of their agents.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jan 18, 2:11 PM
    • 18,346 Posts
    • 23,233 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 18, 2:11 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Jan 18, 2:11 PM
    pedantic head on :-

    this is not a PENALTY , its a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE

    this is not a FINE , its a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE

    ie:- an INVOICE , nothing more

    so never use the 2 words above when talking about private parking charge notices , especially not in any appeals or in any future court cases

    and unless the driver has been identified then the NTK is also critical in this case so do not dismiss it , POFA2012 liability relies on it being issued , with the correct wording , in the correct timeline

    if you were to lose in court , the usual loss would be the £100 plus court fees , so about £175 , as it is small claims court its not going to get out of hand

    and it is civil court , where a judge decides who owes who and how much is owed (so like RINDER on tv , without all the theatrics) - nothing to be scared of and I would suggest well after the baby is born

    check your lease as it is crucial , and read up on cases like the JOPSON case etc , and any OWN SPACE threads on here too

    definitely get on to the MA next week and insist on a cancellation
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 13th Jan 18, 3:39 PM
    • 35,896 Posts
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    Quentin
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 18, 3:39 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Jan 18, 3:39 PM
    I cannot find an answer to my question though. I suppose i should have summarised that i am looking ti find out if there is anything i can do without court action......
    Originally posted by nigeld1982
    Assuming they are taking court action the only thing you can do to stop it is to pay them (though as you would expect this is not the recommendation of this forum!)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jan 18, 5:36 PM
    • 58,460 Posts
    • 71,967 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Unfortunately we missed on the back of one page the option to appeal to the IAS.
    That's a lucky escape, because defending a badly-made claim v BW Legal is much easier than IAS! A kangaroo court.

    BTW this is not a fine.

    We clearly don't want to do this as it will be potentially lots more money,
    Pardon? No, it won't.

    What on earth makes you think small claims adds money? It will be no more than the silly amount being demanded, even if you are one of the very rare ones here who loses. Maybe £150 - £175 tops, including the 'parking charge'. Same as now!

    Our win rate in small claims defences, when posters stick around for help throughout, is around 99% with posters paying nothing, and claiming costs.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nigeld1982
    • By nigeld1982 14th Jan 18, 12:05 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    nigeld1982
    hi all thanks for your responses,

    having checked the lease the document states the parking place is ours for exclusive use but that we don't own it, it states the obvious basically.

    the lease doesn't state anywhere that a permit has to be displayed in the vehicle, just the site signage with the gated community!

    The letter we now have does state that they will be taking court action, a lot of 'we will' and 'no further notice'.

    the next step as i see it, is to contact the management company and dispute their relationship and the lease wording.
    • nigeld1982
    • By nigeld1982 14th Jan 18, 12:11 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    nigeld1982
    Thanks 'Coupon-mad' - we will be fighting this as its a BS claim from them, our lease states the space is exclusively ours.

    the permit was displayed in a side front window and they have yet to provide any clear evidence to the contrary which they wont/can't.

    Our next step is contacting the leasehold/management company and requesting their involvement as the contracting agent, and disputing the lease wording - at no point does it mention having to display a permit in the vehicle, merely that one is required, the site signage requests that it is displayed but doesn't have specific request where it should be displayed.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Jan 18, 12:26 PM
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    Umkomaas
    the site signage requests that it is displayed but doesn't have specific request where it should be displayed.
    Get plenty of photographs of the signage now, and of sufficient quality to be able to read any small print.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nigeld1982
    • By nigeld1982 14th Jan 18, 10:04 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    nigeld1982
    Will do and thanks - but why? incase they change it quickly?
    • Castle
    • By Castle 14th Jan 18, 10:08 PM
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    • 2,392 Thanks
    Castle
    Will do and thanks - but why? incase they change it quickly?
    Originally posted by nigeld1982
    Yes; and make sure the photos are date stamped.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Jan 18, 10:13 PM
    • 17,996 Posts
    • 28,490 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Get plenty of photographs of the signage now, and of sufficient quality to be able to read any small print.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Will do and thanks - but why? incase they change it quickly?
    Originally posted by nigeld1982
    Because they have up to 6 years to pursue this through the county court. They donít necessarily need to do it quickly. Rock up with your camera in 2023 to take photos and Iíd eat my leg if the signs are the same as they were at the time of your parking event.

    How are you going to argue your case then in front of a judge?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jan 18, 10:41 PM
    • 58,460 Posts
    • 71,967 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The letter we now have does state that they will be taking court action, a lot of 'we will' and 'no further notice'.
    Right, who is it from, DE?

    How long does it give you to reply, 14 days or 30 days?

    Does it refer you to the Pre-action Protocol (debt claims) and attach reply sheets?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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