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  • FIRST POST
    • flothy
    • By flothy 11th Jan 18, 12:55 AM
    • 32Posts
    • 76Thanks
    flothy
    Court claim form for child
    • #1
    • 11th Jan 18, 12:55 AM
    Court claim form for child 11th Jan 18 at 12:55 AM
    Hi

    I have read all the newbies info but would like advice on how to proceed with court claim that was received in my sons name.

    The registered keeper is my son who was aged 6 when he received a parking ticket. He is disabled and the car was parked in a disabled bay displaying his blue badge.

    The private car park sign stated no free parking for blue badge so we purchased a parking ticket. Due to my sons condition we were slightly late back to the car (15 minutes max) and received a parking ticket.

    When we received the letter we contacted the company and explained the situation. They advised us that unless we disclosed who was driving the car they would continue to write to our son. We explained we take him to the park daily and could not confirm what carer was driving. We contacted the land owners and explained the situation and they provided a number for the park manager. We contacted him and he said he would speak to them to waive it and they would not be able to take a child to court.

    We moved house and today collected post from our previous home (childs name was not on our redirection). A claim form has been sent from Northampton courts to our child.

    I have drafted a letter drawing on the breaches of the code of practice, equality act, reasonable adjustments etc along with the fact the defendant is only seven now.I called the companies legal team and they asked if they could speak to the child! Then asked for evidence of age.

    Just wanted advice on if I should contact courts first or send this letter to the company?
Page 3
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Jan 18, 9:11 AM
    • 2,759 Posts
    • 3,430 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Burden is on the RK to show who was the real keeper according to POFA 2012
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    No it isnt

    Proving the contrary means just that. I can prove a RK is not the person in day to day charge of a vehicle without proving who the keeper actually is.

    I can prove a minor who cannot be in CHARGE of a vehicle is not the keeper, without ever identifying the keeper
    • flothy
    • By flothy 12th Jan 18, 2:20 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    flothy
    You need to complete form N235 and send it to the Court. A minor (under 18) cannot be a party to the case, and you, or another adult, need to be named as his Litigation Friend.

    So then the case name will be changed to something like Scumbag Parking Ltd -v- Toby Jones (a Child, by his litigation friend Mary Jones), and you can file a defence and complete all other paperwork.
    Originally posted by bargepole
    OP: what is the ISSUE DATE on the claim form?

    My concern is that, if the claim isnt acknowledged, or is already out of time, that the CCBC will not process the form in time and there will be a default judgement possible.

    I would formally put the SOLICITORS on notice that the defendant is a minor, potentially enclosing a proof of age just to get them to bloody listen, and TELL THEM that if they attempt to enforce a default while the N235 is being processed, you will report them to the SRA. They KNEW the RK was a child.

    There can be no possibility of the RK being the Keeper, so cannot be liable. They cannot be in charge of the motor vehicle I dont believe?
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    Thank you all for the advice. I have emailed BW Legal and copied in the CEO of Parks Trust to confirm that the defendant is a minor and to not move to a judgement. Email bounced back from BW Legal to say it was not the correct email address for court claim so second email sent to another email address and off to send letter recorded delivery. Talk about making you jump through hoops!

    I am completing the N235 and it states that I have to send it to the court

    'when you take the first step on
    the defendantís behalf in the claim together with the certificate of
    service (if applicable).'

    Does this mean I send it in along with the acknowledgment of service?

    I think if you write politely to Mr De Savary, focussing on the 'mistake by BW Legal who are known to make robo-claims without reading any detail' he might well cancel this one, if you say you will be publicising it further.
    Thanks for the advice, next letter to be written....
    • Castle
    • By Castle 12th Jan 18, 2:57 PM
    • 1,768 Posts
    • 2,393 Thanks
    Castle
    Don't use recorded delivery, as BW legal will probably refuse to sign for it; just first class with a certificate of postage from the post office is needed.

    Certificate of service form is a N215 form.
    • flothy
    • By flothy 12th Jan 18, 4:04 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    flothy
    Don't use recorded delivery, as BW legal will probably refuse to sign for it; just first class with a certificate of postage from the post office is needed.

    Certificate of service form is a N215 form.
    Thanks for this, was just heading out to post!
    • flothy
    • By flothy 12th Jan 18, 9:20 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    flothy
    I have sat here tonight and thought about this.

    I am not happy that both the land owner and Napier have allowed it to get to this point. Our son is now starting to pick up on conversations (even though we are trying to be discreet) and has had night terrors the last two nights.

    I have looked through the court claim and can not find a box to counter claim. If we decide to go down this route, how do we do it?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 12th Jan 18, 9:34 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,308 Thanks
    pappa golf
    how can you COUNTER claim ? the paperwork is not in your name

    you may however as the perent/guardian of the child , bring a seperate claim against one or 2 companies , BW are acting for the PPC , (and in <sick> ) good faith based on info provided to them

    you have not hired them , the PPC has , , why should they take instructions from you? , instructions come from the PPC

    much as you can tell BW to sod off , instructions must come from the PPC
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 12th Jan 18, 9:37 PM
    • 35,908 Posts
    • 20,172 Thanks
    Quentin
    Our son is now starting to pick up on conversations (even though we are trying to be discreet) and has had night terrors the last two nights.

    I have looked through the court claim and can not find a box to counter claim. If we decide to go down this route, how do we do it?
    Originally posted by flothy
    Surely you shouldn't be discussing this with a six year old??


    You submit a counterclaim (and fee) along with the defence
    • flothy
    • By flothy 12th Jan 18, 9:52 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    flothy
    Surely you shouldn't be discussing this with a six year old??


    You submit a counterclaim (and fee) along with the defence
    Originally posted by Quentin
    Gosh no we would never discuss it with him he has a learning disability and we thought we had been discreet. Sorry I should have explained sooner he is adopted and we have been to court for this, so hearing anyone mentioning court is a worry for him.

    As I have stated, foolishly I have spoken to BW Legal and Parks Trust this week on the phone and discussed it with my husband. I thought he hadn't heard our conversations.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th Jan 18, 9:56 PM
    • 3,408 Posts
    • 4,536 Thanks
    waamo
    Did they know prior to launching a claim that it would be against a child? If not I don!!!8217;t think a counter claim would go down very well.

    Generally judges don!!!8217;t seem very keen on them. It would likely be views as retaliation rather than a genuine claim for damages. If you are thinking of mentioning emotional distress it will probably go down like a lead balloon, mostly because you can!!!8217;t put a value on it.

    If the claim was launched with a reasonable expectation it was against an adult you may end up out of pocket.
    This space for hire.
    • flothy
    • By flothy 12th Jan 18, 10:03 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    flothy
    Did they know prior to launching a claim that it would be against a child? If not I donít think a counter claim would go down very well.

    Generally judges donít seem very keen on them. It would likely be views as retaliation rather than a genuine claim for damages. If you are thinking of mentioning emotional distress it will probably go down like a lead balloon, mostly because you canít put a value on it.

    If the claim was launched with a reasonable expectation it was against an adult you may end up out of pocket.
    Originally posted by waamo
    They were aware it was against a minor. I did speak to the land owners in the summer and was advised that they would not take it to court. I spoke to them again this week and they had changed their view.

    I am not after retaliation I just want it not to happen again to someone.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 12th Jan 18, 10:09 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,308 Thanks
    pappa golf
    They were aware it was against a minor. I did speak to the land owners in the summer and was advised that they would not take it to court. I spoke to them again this week and they had changed their view.

    I am not after retaliation I just want it not to happen again to someone.
    Originally posted by flothy

    then a counter claim is not what you need , public embarrassment is the way to go
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th Jan 18, 10:14 PM
    • 3,408 Posts
    • 4,536 Thanks
    waamo
    You may have a case against the landowner but frankly it may be a long shot. The burning question is how much are you wanting to claim and what for?

    The system loves amounts that can be fully justified rather than figures plucked out of the air which I fear this may be.

    What may really fly is costs on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour. You have direct evidence of that. List everything down to the last penny and don!!!8217;t forget your personal time. It!!!8217;s amazing how much these provable costs can add up.
    This space for hire.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 18, 10:40 PM
    • 58,493 Posts
    • 71,975 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    IMHO, you can claim under the Equality Act 2010 for harassment of the carers of a disabled child, and failure to make a reasonable adjustment of time.

    I think you SHOULD counter-claim!

    Have a look at Acidmonkey's thread:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5597961

    ... his defence includes a counter-claim I wrote, then he added in the landowner under the Part 20 procedure, and he is now proceeding towards a hearing of his counter-claim (the PPC's claim was struck out!). I think you should take the same steps, counter claim and apply to add in the landowner (get their legal name right).

    Acidmonkey's counter-claim is just a guide for you, a starter, because it's not an Equality Act one, whereas yours is.

    Carers of disabled people - child or not - are legally protected in a similar way to the person themselves, and service providers have legal duties imposed under the Statutory Code of Practice relating to Service Providers*, that include:

    - a duty to make 'reasonable adjustments' for disabled people
    - anticipatory policy adjustments of arbitrary time limits, to allow the disabled population access (the Code gives an example!). This is INDIRECT discrimination.
    - harassing a disabled person or their carers is prohibited in itself, and the remedy is compensation.
    - services cannot charge the disabled person for the 'reasonable adjustment'
    - once they 'knew or should have known' about the disability, yet persist with this conduct, they are also guilty of DIRECT discrimination.



    * https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/services-public-functions-and-associations-statutory-code-practice

    Now download it and search the PDF for the word 'tours' - there's your example of a time limit requiring a reasonable adjustment in law!

    Oh, and read this and use this in evidence for your counter-claim too:

    http://www.wake-smith.co.uk/news/council-car-park-case-settled-a-victory-for-blue-badge-holders/

    I think you should counter claim for £1000 - AT LEAST - for distress, personally, if you word it well and hit HARD about the distress caused to you (carer) and the child who is suffering night terrors after hearing court being discussed...

    You may wish to also mention Blamires and Vidal Hall, like I did here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72985679#post72985679

    Point is, they have refused to admit their mistake, failed to make a reasonable adjustment of time, then they have harassed you, now they must compensate you (the child Defendant).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-01-2018 at 10:50 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • logician
    • By logician 12th Jan 18, 10:47 PM
    • 194 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    logician
    They were aware it was against a minor. I did speak to the land owners in the summer and was advised that they would not take it to court. I spoke to them again this week and they had changed their view.

    I am not after retaliation I just want it not to happen again to someone.
    Originally posted by flothy


    Who is they? Did you not contact NAPIER about this at any stage?

    Sounds like you contacted just the landowner.

    You should also put in the defence that the landowner advised no court action..



    EMAIL JAMES ON HIS PERSONAL ACCOUNT

    james@napierparking.co.uk
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 18, 10:47 PM
    • 58,493 Posts
    • 71,975 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Oh, see this thread too:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73680257#post73680257

    and read the links and case law, on the helpful British Stammering Association website. A good resource.

    If you decide to counter-claim I will help you write it, like I did for Acidmonkey.



    If you email James De Savary now, he will cancel it you know...as I told you already.

    Do you want him to?

    Do you want to force a hearing?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • flothy
    • By flothy 12th Jan 18, 11:01 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    flothy
    IMHO, you can claim under the Equality Act 2010 for harassment of the carers of a disabled child, and failure to make a reasonable adjustment of time.

    I think you SHOULD counter-claim!

    Have a look at Acidmonkey's thread:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5597961

    ... his defence includes a counter-claim I wrote, then he added in the landowner under the Part 20 procedure, and he is now proceeding towards a hearing of his counter-claim (the PPC's claim was struck out!). I think you should take the same steps, counter claim and apply to add in the landowner (get their legal name right).

    Acidmonkey's counter-claim is just a guide for you, a starter, because it's not an Equality Act one, whereas yours is.

    Carers of disabled people - child or not - are legally protected in a similar way to the person themselves, and service providers have legal duties imposed under the Statutory Code of Practice relating to Service Providers*, that include:

    - a duty to make 'reasonable adjustments' for disabled people
    - anticipatory policy adjustments of arbitrary time limits, to allow the disabled population access (the Code gives an example!). This is INDIRECT discrimination.
    - harassing a disabled person or their carers is prohibited in itself, and the remedy is compensation.
    - services cannot charge the disabled person for the 'reasonable adjustment'
    - once they 'knew or should have known' about the disability, yet persist with this conduct, they are also guilty of DIRECT discrimination.



    * https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/services-public-functions-and-associations-statutory-code-practice

    Now download it and search the PDF for the word 'tours' - there's your example of a time limit requiring a reasonable adjustment in law!

    Oh, and read this and use this in evidence for your counter-claim too:

    http://www.wake-smith.co.uk/news/council-car-park-case-settled-a-victory-for-blue-badge-holders/

    I think you should counter claim for £1000 - AT LEAST - for distress, personally, if you word it well and hit HARD about the distress caused to you (carer) and the child who is suffering night terrors after hearing court being discussed...

    You may wish to also mention Blamires and Vidal Hall, like I did here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72985679#post72985679

    Point is, they have refused to admit their mistake, failed to make a reasonable adjustment of time, then they have harassed you, now they must compensate you (the child Defendant).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    WOW! We can't thank you enough for this advice, we are extremely grateful.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 18, 11:08 PM
    • 58,493 Posts
    • 71,975 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Like I say I will help you write a counter-claim if you start it (read all the links and Acidmonkey's example) but I think James D will cancel this claim sharpish. Especially if someone reading this takes it upon themselves to contact him, which would be a shame, but such meddlers exist on public forums.

    So we'd have to be quick to defend & counter-claim, and normally a Defendant has to pay a small fee to counter-claim - although I would have thought your son qualifies for fee remission (Google 'help with court fees').

    Got to be a no-brainer to do this, if you are up to sue for a grand with no court fee outlay.

    I will help for free of course, openly on this thread.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • flothy
    • By flothy 12th Jan 18, 11:20 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    flothy
    Who is they? Did you not contact NAPIER about this at any stage?

    Sounds like you contacted just the landowner.

    You should also put in the defence that the landowner advised no court action..



    EMAIL JAMES ON HIS PERSONAL ACCOUNT

    james@napierparking.co.uk
    Originally posted by logician
    I did contact Napier last year (foolishly by phone). I had to go through a few options on the phone not to get the automated machine but they were not interested in the fact it was a child. This week the land owner confirmed they had a discussion with Napier last summer and confirmed that napier knew the defendant was a child.

    Thank you for the email address, gratefully received!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 18, 11:25 PM
    • 58,493 Posts
    • 71,975 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thank you for the email address, gratefully received!
    Seriously? Did you read what I wrote? Post #55.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • flothy
    • By flothy 12th Jan 18, 11:36 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    flothy
    Oh, see this thread too:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73680257#post73680257

    and read the links and case law, on the helpful British Stammering Association website. A good resource.

    If you decide to counter-claim I will help you write it, like I did for Acidmonkey.



    If you email James De Savary now, he will cancel it you know...as I told you already.

    Do you want him to?

    Do you want to force a hearing?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    At first I just wanted it to be cancelled. Now I would like a hearing. I think he may already be aware due to copying the CEO of Parks Trust into my response to BW Legal.

    Do you have a email address?
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