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  • FIRST POST
    • kcsc1943
    • By kcsc1943 10th Jan 18, 6:12 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 0Thanks
    kcsc1943
    sold a dud need help
    • #1
    • 10th Jan 18, 6:12 PM
    sold a dud need help 10th Jan 18 at 6:12 PM
    I bought a brand new van with delivery mileage in late November 2017 on HP (Hire Purchase Agreement (non regulated ?) using the dealers manufacturers Finance, paying an initial reserve deposit by bacs, then a further deposits by bacs and payment by credit card over £200 - and balance was to be on finance.
    10 days and less than 100 miles after the van was delivered it would not start, called the manufactures helpline and they sent out RAC, but they could not fix it after approximately 2hours. RAC they then arranged for the vehicle to go to the main dealer .
    5 days after the dealer had received the vehicle i received contact from them advising that they had contacted the manufacturer and were awaiting guidance from them, as they could not fix the van ???. after replacing several parts was advised that i would have to wait until January 2018 until their technical department was available for them to come to the dealership to check over the vehicle faults.

    I emailed asked for the vehicle to be replaced rejecting original it as not fit for purpose, .

    2 days later received an email from the dealer stating that they were going to replace the vehicle, and were arranging this. However, 3 days after this received a text and an email advising that the offer had been receded as the van was now repaired.

    I refused again to accept the vehicle and asked again for it to be replaced this was late in December .

    2018 The manufacturer has been in contact with the dealer in order to mediate, but the dealer is refusing to replace the vehicle.
    The manufacturer’s finance company have advised that as its a limited company that took the finance apparently have no consumer uk rights to refuse under current legislation? Or Sale of Goods Act ?
    Have sent emails and finance details to the hsbc credit card company and are currently awaiting their contact on the matter.

    As at today’s date, 33 days after the vehicle was taken to the dealer, i still do not have a van its in there compound.

    What can I do next ?
Page 1
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 10th Jan 18, 7:01 PM
    • 17,580 Posts
    • 15,940 Thanks
    AdrianC
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 18, 7:01 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 18, 7:01 PM
    The manufacturer’s finance company have advised that as its a limited company that took the finance apparently have no consumer uk rights to refuse under current legislation?
    Originally posted by kcsc1943
    Correct. There's a clue in the name of the Consumer Rights Act and Consumer Credit Act. Business-to-business sales are not covered.

    As at today’s date, 33 days after the vehicle was taken to the dealer, i still do not have a van its in there compound.
    True - but that's your choice. You've chosen not to collect it, even though you've been told the issue is fixed.
    • Roland Sausage
    • By Roland Sausage 10th Jan 18, 7:30 PM
    • 544 Posts
    • 401 Thanks
    Roland Sausage
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 18, 7:30 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 18, 7:30 PM
    I can!!!8217;t understand why you expect a whole new van just because of a faulty component which presumably has now been replaced.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 10th Jan 18, 8:29 PM
    • 13,572 Posts
    • 8,617 Thanks
    arcon5
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 18, 8:29 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 18, 8:29 PM
    Collect the van. Your rights are very much dictated by the terms of the contract. Consumer protection for limited company purchases doesn't apply
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 10th Jan 18, 8:52 PM
    • 27,187 Posts
    • 10,954 Thanks
    forgotmyname
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 18, 8:52 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 18, 8:52 PM
    Duplicated thread in the Credit Card section.
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 10th Jan 18, 9:03 PM
    • 16,745 Posts
    • 9,927 Thanks
    motorguy
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:03 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:03 PM
    It is not unusual for dealers these days to have to get the manufacturer to diagnose the fault.

    I've had a significant fault on my Passat and previously on a Golf and on both occasions the dealer had to gather ECU data and pass it to the manufacturer for diagnosis.

    And as per everyone elses comments, you've no rights to reject under the Consumer Rights Act.
    "We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
    • patman99
    • By patman99 10th Jan 18, 9:31 PM
    • 8,201 Posts
    • 9,667 Thanks
    patman99
    • #7
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:31 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:31 PM
    Why not collect the van and see how it runs?. It might be fault-free for the remainder of your ownership.

    If it developed further faults, they will be fixed under warranty at no cost to yourself.
    Never Knowingly Understood.

    Member #1 of £1,000 challenge - £1000/ £1000 (that's 100%)

    3-6 month EF £631.65/£3600 (that's 10 days worth)

    Do you/your spouse earn less than £197 p/w ?. Fill-in Form R85 and get your Bank interest Tax free.
    • debtdebt
    • By debtdebt 10th Jan 18, 10:09 PM
    • 479 Posts
    • 311 Thanks
    debtdebt
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:09 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:09 PM
    The dealer has to be given a chance to fix the fault. They may have fixed it. You've not given them a chance to prove they've fixed it.
    • kcsc1943
    • By kcsc1943 10th Jan 18, 11:15 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    kcsc1943
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 11:15 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 11:15 PM
    Are we all saying that as a small mico ltd business I have no rights or protection! on the faulty van


    Advised Ecu replaced and dear knows what else was done more that one attempt before they gave up on the van it would not power up at all . rejected before the 30 days


    advised in mid December Wait until mid January for the manufacturer look at it with less than 100 miles surely not !


    They offered a new van I accepted ,then they receded 3 days later, have an email of that offer .


    The Manufacture them self's contacted the dealer regarding the complaint and the offer the dealer made regards replacement dealer just refusing to replace now .


    Should I have paid part deposit with personal credit card rather that business credit card for section 75 protection ?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Jan 18, 7:48 AM
    • 17,580 Posts
    • 15,940 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Are we all saying that as a small mico ltd business I have no rights or protection! on the faulty van
    Originally posted by kcsc1943
    We're saying that consumer rights don't apply, because it's a business-to-business, not a business-to-consumer transaction.

    rejected before the 30 days
    That 30 days does not apply.

    advised in mid December Wait until mid January for the manufacturer look at it with less than 100 miles surely not !
    Yet it was fixed before Xmas.

    They offered a new van I accepted ,then they receded 3 days later, have an email of that offer .
    Because your van was fixed. You then refused to collect it.

    Should I have paid part deposit with personal credit card rather that business credit card for section 75 protection ?
    It wouldn't make a difference. It's still a b2c transaction.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 11th Jan 18, 8:12 AM
    • 16,745 Posts
    • 9,927 Thanks
    motorguy
    Are we all saying that as a small mico ltd business I have no rights or protection! on the faulty van


    Advised Ecu replaced and dear knows what else was done more that one attempt before they gave up on the van it would not power up at all . rejected before the 30 days


    advised in mid December Wait until mid January for the manufacturer look at it with less than 100 miles surely not !


    They offered a new van I accepted ,then they receded 3 days later, have an email of that offer .


    The Manufacture them self's contacted the dealer regarding the complaint and the offer the dealer made regards replacement dealer just refusing to replace now .


    Should I have paid part deposit with personal credit card rather that business credit card for section 75 protection ?
    Originally posted by kcsc1943
    You need to consider this objectively and with a sense of perspective.

    You bought a new van and it developed a fault. The dealer couldnt diagnose it (very common these days) so they deferred to the manufacturer. The manufacturer reviewed the codes and authorised the replacement of the unit in question. It may simply have been a faulty connection however the manufacturer will simply replace the component rather than attempt to take it apart and diagnose and repair.

    My Passat was throwing on the DPF light at a year old just after i bought it. The dealer had no clue on the root cause of the fault and deferred to the manufacturer. The car was off the road for a fortnight (however they did lend me a new golf) and ultimately VW replaced the entire emissions control unit which includes the DPF, various sensors and i think a catalytic converter of sorts. No doubt it was a sensor somewhere however the manufacturer replaced the whole lot.

    So whilst you're seeing "dud van that needed a major repair that even the dealer couldnt fix", the reality is it was "van developed fault, dealer deferred to manufacturer for accurate diagnosis and manufacturer authorised the replacement of a component to resolve".

    Your van had a fault, it was fixed. You're entitled to go pick it up and continue driving it.
    Last edited by motorguy; 11-01-2018 at 8:18 AM.
    "We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 11th Jan 18, 8:16 AM
    • 16,745 Posts
    • 9,927 Thanks
    motorguy
    Are we all saying that as a small mico ltd business I have no rights or protection! on the faulty van


    Advised Ecu replaced and dear knows what else was done more that one attempt before they gave up on the van it would not power up at all . rejected before the 30 days
    Originally posted by kcsc1943
    Yes!

    Sorry thats not what you want to hear, but thats the facts of the matter.

    And itts not a "faulty van" nor is it a "dud", its a van that developed a fault that was resolved.

    You need to stop focusing on "ecu replaced and dear knows what else was done" and view it as "component that was at fault replaced".

    These things happen. It was fixed.
    Last edited by motorguy; 11-01-2018 at 8:26 AM.
    "We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
    • bertiewhite
    • By bertiewhite 11th Jan 18, 8:25 AM
    • 1,107 Posts
    • 1,219 Thanks
    bertiewhite
    It's entirely possible that the van could have had a fault during final test and fixed even before you took delivery and you'd never have known!!
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 11th Jan 18, 8:43 AM
    • 5,082 Posts
    • 5,665 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    Surely as a small business, your priority it maximise your profits, how are you going to do that without a van?
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 11th Jan 18, 10:12 AM
    • 1,462 Posts
    • 1,080 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    You've also got a misunderstanding of your legal rights.

    The van should be fit for purpose. As a business, if you consider that the thing you have bought is not suitable, you are entitled to argue your case and come to an agreement with the seller for recompense. If they will not agree, you can take them to court and spend time and money to do that. However, as you are a business, it is assumed that you have access to the funds and expertise to argue your case. You can still rely on things like the Sale of Goods Act which is not consumer legislation - so you can argue that the van is not fit for purpose under SGA but you get no assistance from consumer legislation to enforce that argument.

    Consumer legislation is based on the premise that the relationship between a business and a consumer is unbalanced - the individual typically has no access to the expertise to resolve faults and that it is fairer that a business, which is assumed to be competent and properly funded, has got access to the various expertise and funding to allow them to do their job, and also to access the courts to protect their position.

    For example, any business creating a generic sales contract should have access to legal advice to ensure that their terms and conditions are reasonably water tight, but they only need to consult a legal expert once to get the wording right, but every time a customer gets the contract it will be different from another company. It would be unfair to expect a consumer to consult a lawyer every time they made a purchase so it is unreasonable to hold a consumer to the same standards of understanding of contracts as a business. This is balanced out by saying that in a contract dispute, any ambiguous term is interpreted in favour of the consumer and any unfair term is ignored (where the courts ultimately decide what is ambiguous and unfair) - a business can protect itself by making sure its contract is unambiguous and fair and it has taken all reasonable steps to bring the terms to the attention of the consumer.

    You are in the unfortunate position that as a very small business, you are really no better off than a consumer, but legally you are being treated as a business. That's how it is, and if you want it changed, I suggest popping a letter to your MP to suggest that consumer legislation should be extended to micro-companies. It is not an unreasonable suggestion but it might have unintended consequences (e.g. why should they give trade prices to someone protected as a consumer?).

    Further there is even the question of what is a consumer? If you are a sole trader and you use a kettle at home the answer in relation to the kettle is "It depends"! If you occasionally totter through to the kitchen and use the household kettle then it is probably a consumer purchase; if you have it in your office shed at the bottom of the garden, then it is probably a trade purchase.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 11th Jan 18, 1:30 PM
    • 13,572 Posts
    • 8,617 Thanks
    arcon5
    How big the ltd company is makes no difference unfortunately
    • Ganga
    • By Ganga 11th Jan 18, 3:12 PM
    • 1,109 Posts
    • 564 Thanks
    Ganga
    I would ask the dealer for some compensation ie a couple of free services to make up for the time you have been without the van.
    ITS NOT EASY TO GET EVERYTHING WRONG ,I HAVE TO WORK HARD TO DO IT!
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