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  • FIRST POST
    • StumpyRob
    • By StumpyRob 10th Jan 18, 4:00 PM
    • 2Posts
    • 3Thanks
    StumpyRob
    Claiming for the none payment of a firearm ...18 years ago!
    • #1
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:00 PM
    Claiming for the none payment of a firearm ...18 years ago! 10th Jan 18 at 4:00 PM
    Hi - long time forum reader, but this is my first post.
    I'm hoping somebody in the know will be able to help me.

    I have recently taken up target shooting as a hobby, something my father did many moons ago.
    During a recent conversation with him he mentioned that his old firearms were handed into a local gunsmith (I wont mention who they are at the moment) to be sold on his behalf. Something must have jogged his memory at the time because he realized that he has never had any contact from the company since he handed them over to be sold - 18 YEARS AGO! (I must also add at this point that my father has lived at the same address for over 25 years and his phone number hasn't changed)

    I told him that he should chase it up and see if he can find his sale receipt - after a day or so of searching there is was in all its glory! - date, time, makes, models, firearm serial numbers and even a signature of the person who accepted the guns.

    I had a quick google of the company and they are still trading (also checked Companies House). I tried contacting the company in question via email, letter and as a last resort Facebook and I have just been ignored.

    I am sure that records must be kept of guns but I think they're only for 5 years. The chances of these guns being still in the shop are very slim, I am guessing they have been sold on or destroyed the thing is though, is that allowed without my fathers permission?

    I know the whole story sounds ridiculous, but it wasn't until we got onto the conversation that he remembered about them.

    We had a look online and we have valued the guns in total at an approximate cost of 1200 - not crazy money I know, but its money illegitimately withheld from him (providing they have actually been sold).

    Would he have any chance in court or claiming or should he just give up now?

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Rob
Page 1
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 10th Jan 18, 4:04 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:04 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:04 PM
    Would he have any chance in court or claiming
    Originally posted by StumpyRob
    After 18 years? No.
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 10th Jan 18, 4:34 PM
    • 3,633 Posts
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    LilElvis
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:34 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:34 PM
    Your Dad had 6 years to chase this up.
    • stuartJo1989
    • By stuartJo1989 10th Jan 18, 4:36 PM
    • 446 Posts
    • 476 Thanks
    stuartJo1989
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:36 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:36 PM

    I had a quick google of the company and they are still trading (also checked Companies House). I tried contacting the company in question via email, letter and as a last resort Facebook and I have just been ignored.
    Originally posted by StumpyRob


    Seriously, this is something that you need to show some sort of physical presence and put some heat on the shop owners (ring them or go to this "local" store in person).

    Aside from them admitting liability, you'll probably struggle to get any sort of resolution through the courts for the following reasons:

    - You typically only get up to 6 years as a window to approach the courts (potentially longer if you spent a good portion of the time critically ill, as in on your death bed or in a coma etc)

    - I'm not very knowledgeable, but I believe that companies must only hold data for a reasonable time frame and not hold it when unnecessary. So yea, very likely that there is now no record (aside from your receipt).

    - Prove that your dad didn't receive the money for it (maybe even in cash) sometime but has just completely forgotten about it (speculative line of inquiry, but memory can fade quite a lot over 18 years).
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 10th Jan 18, 4:38 PM
    • 20,321 Posts
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    agrinnall
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:38 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:38 PM
    While the debt still exists there is no way to enforce payment after 6 years. Your only hope is if the company does respond and agrees that they never made the payment and will do it now, but don't hold your breath!
    • cookie365
    • By cookie365 10th Jan 18, 9:02 PM
    • 1,778 Posts
    • 1,176 Thanks
    cookie365
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:02 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:02 PM
    If your dad had forgotten about handing over the guns, how do you know he hadn't also forgotten about getting paid for them?
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 10th Jan 18, 9:04 PM
    • 16,083 Posts
    • 12,166 Thanks
    hollydays
    • #7
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:04 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:04 PM
    ^^^^^
    This
    • zoob
    • By zoob 10th Jan 18, 10:22 PM
    • 218 Posts
    • 101 Thanks
    zoob
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:22 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:22 PM
    Personally Id call into the shop with the reciept and ask them to return the guns as no one has made contact to say there sold and see what they say, doesnt matter how long ago it was, your father still owns the guns legally until there sold on his behalf.
    If there sold hes still due his money and there entitled to the commission that was agreed at that time.
    Cant see the 6year rule applying here as the retailer has never stated that they were sold, if hed not being informed of this hed not being able request dept to be paid
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 10th Jan 18, 10:46 PM
    • 1,508 Posts
    • 851 Thanks
    boo_star
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:46 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:46 PM
    Personally Id call into the shop with the reciept and ask them to return the guns as no one has made contact to say there sold and see what they say, doesnt matter how long ago it was, your father still owns the guns legally until there sold on his behalf.
    If there sold hes still due his money and there entitled to the commission that was agreed at that time.
    Cant see the 6year rule applying here as the retailer has never stated that they were sold, if hed not being informed of this hed not being able request dept to be paid
    Originally posted by zoob
    They can simply say we sold them and the father would have no comeback due to the limitation act.
    • stuartJo1989
    • By stuartJo1989 10th Jan 18, 10:59 PM
    • 446 Posts
    • 476 Thanks
    stuartJo1989
    Personally I!!!8217;d call into the shop with the reciept and ask them to return the guns as no one has made contact to say there sold and see what they say, doesnt matter how long ago it was, your father still owns the guns legally until there sold on his behalf.
    If there sold he!!!8217;s still due his money and there entitled to the commission that was agreed at that time.
    Can!!!8217;t see the 6year rule applying here as the retailer has never stated that they were sold, if he!!!8217;d not being informed of this he!!!8217;d not being able request dept to be paid
    Originally posted by zoob
    I mirror your thoughts on going into the shop! OP needs to make some waves, not fire off a letter or email.

    But I don't mirror your comment RE: the 6 year rule to be honest...

    You say "the retailer has never stated that they were sold", but with respect maybe they have?! Maybe OP's dad's memory is hazy? Maybe the receipt/letter confirming sale has been lost?

    Unless OP's dad has been on his deathbed for the past 10 years (or in a coma, but even then I'm just guessing!) then he has no legal recourse... Even if he does theoretically own the gun or is entitled to the money.
    • zoob
    • By zoob 10th Jan 18, 11:51 PM
    • 218 Posts
    • 101 Thanks
    zoob
    I!!!8217;m asumming the OP!!!8217;s father hasent being told the guns are sold and forgot to check.
    Once it!!!8217;s confirmed and established if the guns are sold that theres a dept owed to the OP!!!8217;s father only at that point he has 6 years to claim it before its statute barred, if the retailer has made contact to say the guns are sold in the last 18 years but the father never chased it up then it!!!8217;s his loss if he!!!8217;d not chased it up within 6 years
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 11th Jan 18, 12:52 AM
    • 12,420 Posts
    • 9,720 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Personally Id call into the shop with the reciept and ask them to return the guns as no one has made contact to say there sold and see what they say, doesnt matter how long ago it was, your father still owns the guns legally until there sold on his behalf.
    If there sold hes still due his money and there entitled to the commission that was agreed at that time.
    Cant see the 6year rule applying here as the retailer has never stated that they were sold, if hed not being informed of this hed not being able request dept to be paid
    Originally posted by zoob
    Doesnt matter if they sold or not, its 6 years. The 6 year rule applies to all claims founded on tort or simple contract in england and he had 6 years to claim for the return of the guns or their value.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/58/section/5

    Time limit for actions founded on simple contract.
    An action founded on simple contract shall not be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action accrued.
    Which department would he be requesting to be paid?
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • TrickyDicky101
    • By TrickyDicky101 11th Jan 18, 9:15 AM
    • 3,031 Posts
    • 1,957 Thanks
    TrickyDicky101
    My father has a Firearms certificate and I'm pretty sure that any transactions in weapons needs to be recorded on the certificate itself (this doesn't - or didn't back in the 80s - apply to blackpowder weaponry or shotguns but you mention target shooting so I assume these aren't either of these). So what has happened to your father's certificate? If you have it from the time the guns were handed over does it state anything about the hand-over?
    • StumpyRob
    • By StumpyRob 11th Jan 18, 11:07 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    StumpyRob
    Many thanks guys for all your replies! - I appreciate its a bit of a strange situation and rest assured I have already told my dad hes an idiot for not chasing it up after all these years!

    zoob's post was basically the argument and reasoning I had for chasing up this transaction. I know I'm no expert, but I have been doing some research and the limitation act states that: "the the time period doesn't begin until a breach of contract" (paraphrased) - so on that basis, until he (my father) has been informed of the sale of the guns the contract hasn't been broken and that the 6 year rule hasn't been set in motion yet?

    I do 100% agree with stuartJo1989 though, its time to start applying a bit of pressure, I am planning on going into the shop some time next week and asking them where the sale is up to, and if they have had any interest in the guns recently.

    TrickyDicky101, Good thinking! - have asked my father to have a route through his documents for his expired firearms certificate - hes doesn't think has it anymore however, he did say the same thing about the receipt so we may be lucky enough that it turns up!

    Once again, thanks for all the replies!
    Rob
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 12th Jan 18, 2:11 PM
    • 12,420 Posts
    • 9,720 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Many thanks guys for all your replies! - I appreciate its a bit of a strange situation and rest assured I have already told my dad hes an idiot for not chasing it up after all these years!

    zoob's post was basically the argument and reasoning I had for chasing up this transaction. I know I'm no expert, but I have been doing some research and the limitation act states that: "the the time period doesn't begin until a breach of contract" (paraphrased) - so on that basis, until he (my father) has been informed of the sale of the guns the contract hasn't been broken and that the 6 year rule hasn't been set in motion yet?

    I do 100% agree with stuartJo1989 though, its time to start applying a bit of pressure, I am planning on going into the shop some time next week and asking them where the sale is up to, and if they have had any interest in the guns recently.

    TrickyDicky101, Good thinking! - have asked my father to have a route through his documents for his expired firearms certificate - hes doesn't think has it anymore however, he did say the same thing about the receipt so we may be lucky enough that it turns up!

    Once again, thanks for all the replies!
    Rob
    Originally posted by StumpyRob
    The cause of action arises regardless of whether he knew. The limitation period in scottish law requires awareness (or at least, when you should have been aware with reasonable diligence) but the limitation period in england & wales does not. Cause of action is defined as the time every fact needed to prove the claim had occurred. In other words, when everything had happened that would give him a claim against them.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • stuartJo1989
    • By stuartJo1989 12th Jan 18, 11:04 PM
    • 446 Posts
    • 476 Thanks
    stuartJo1989
    "the the time period doesn't begin until a breach of contract" (paraphrased) - so on that basis, until he (my father) has been informed of the sale of the guns the contract hasn't been broken and that the 6 year rule hasn't been set in motion yet?
    Originally posted by StumpyRob
    I see where you are coming from.

    But the way I see it, the gun should have been sold (or returned) within a *reasonable timeframe*. I think that's implied in this sort of sale.

    I think that the contract was broken at some point when the time they had held the item/money for became "unreasonable". That could be, for example, 6 months maybe?
    • ssparks2003
    • By ssparks2003 12th Jan 18, 11:57 PM
    • 373 Posts
    • 505 Thanks
    ssparks2003
    From a practical perspective I assume that 18 years ago your father must have signed the rifle over to the shop. From his FAC to their dealers licence? With that and the exceptionally long time that this has dragged on I can see them saying that your father has already been paid. It will be down to your father to prove he has not been paid. Personally I would give this up as you are not going to get far if they say no.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 13th Jan 18, 3:33 PM
    • 10,725 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    Does the receipt specifically mention that the guns are entrusted to the gunsmith for him to sell on behalf of your father and are there any written terms and conditions on or attached to the receipt.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 13th Jan 18, 6:59 PM
    • 13,576 Posts
    • 8,619 Thanks
    arcon5
    Not a chance of anything now! To verify your claim that he was never paid would be near impossible... How far do banking records even go back?? Even if still available they'd be needing to make formal requests then scroll through tons of paperwork based on when the payment was most likely to be paid as they are unlikely to still have internal records of payments made.


    Move on you've got no chance. Legally also it's a no go
    Last edited by arcon5; 13-01-2018 at 7:04 PM.
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