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  • FIRST POST
    • hasitbeen
    • By hasitbeen 9th Jan 18, 7:27 PM
    • 16Posts
    • 3Thanks
    hasitbeen
    People living in property with no agreement, no rent. What are my rights
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 7:27 PM
    People living in property with no agreement, no rent. What are my rights 9th Jan 18 at 7:27 PM
    Hello everyone,
    Before anyone says it, I know I am an idiot.
    I rented a house from a landlord I have a written agreement.
    I sub-leased the house , the landlord knew but nothing formal with the landlord or new occupants.
    After a couple of issues the 2 or the 3 people I sub-leased the property to left the property.
    1 guy who was OK and paying etc stayed. I gave him a new set of keys. Now unfortunately I don't know how but the previous occupant who had left got hold of the keys, (I believe it was by force but can't prove it) and he is back in the property and refuses to get out.
    I have 3 months left of the tenancy agreement.
    Can I do anything? Can the landlord do anything? to get this guy out?
    Can I somehow find a way to get my deposit back at least?
    Thank you in advance.
    Again, I appreciate I am an idiot
Page 1
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 9th Jan 18, 8:00 PM
    • 700 Posts
    • 745 Thanks
    HampshireH
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:00 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:00 PM
    Can I ask a genuine question as I have seen this few times on the forum.

    What benefit is there to rent a house privately and then sublet it out?
    • hasitbeen
    • By hasitbeen 9th Jan 18, 8:04 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    hasitbeen
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:04 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:04 PM
    For me, I had to move out of the area and couldn't get out of my tenancy. I know others do it for the money, but I gained nothing financially
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 9th Jan 18, 8:06 PM
    • 700 Posts
    • 745 Thanks
    HampshireH
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:06 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:06 PM
    Thankyou. Sadly the costs associated with the removal of these people and the damage they may cause could be very costly for you.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 9th Jan 18, 9:00 PM
    • 44,402 Posts
    • 52,695 Thanks
    G_M
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 9:00 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 9:00 PM
    Relatively simple to answer.

    Complicated to deal with!

    You are a tenant with obligations (eg rent payments, damage etc) to your landlord.

    You are also a landlord (in that you are sub-letting). There is NO relationship between your tenants (the sub-tenants) and your landlord.

    So:

    1) you must continue to pay rent to your landlord as per your contract, and
    2 you must (eventually) return the property to your landlord in the same condition as when your tenancy started (or pay for the damage).

    As a landlord yourself, I assume you
    3) took a deposit from your tenants?
    4) registered it in a government scheme?
    5) gave them an EPC? A gas certificate? a copy of the gov leaflet?
    6) declared the rent you charged to HMRC on your tax return?
    7) complied with the other 76 regulations relating to lettting of property?

    Moving rapidly on (as I suspect I know the answers above), we would need to know
    8) exactly what kind of contract each of the 'sub-tenants' had with you,
    9) whether they were individual or joint & several,
    10) whether they were ongoing or had expired
    11) if expired, how and when

    But assuming this individual you are concerned about now has no tenancy agreement but has either broken in (a criminal offence) or got in without consent (trespass), you could use the police (breaking and entering) or the courts (trespass) to remove him.

    But beware! He may claim to have a tenancy agreement and accuse you of illegal eviction (also a criminal offence), or accuse you of somee other 'oversight' eg not registering his deposit or complying with the 76 regulations...........

    To help you understand what you should have been doing, see

    * New landlords: advice, information & links

    I repeat - just because you are a tenant renting from a landlord/property owner does not remove or reduce your duties as a landlord yourself, letting to sub-tenants.
    Last edited by G_M; 09-01-2018 at 9:05 PM.
    • thelem
    • By thelem 9th Jan 18, 10:46 PM
    • 713 Posts
    • 524 Thanks
    thelem
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 10:46 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 10:46 PM
    What do you mean the two who you had problems with "left". Was there any agreement to end the tenancy, or did you just change the locks while they were away for a week?

    I assume you didn't live in the property while you were subletting it?
    Note: Unless otherwise stated, my property related posts refer to England & Wales. Please make sure you state if you are discussing Scotland or elsewhere as laws differ.
    • hasitbeen
    • By hasitbeen 9th Jan 18, 11:17 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    hasitbeen
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:17 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:17 PM
    They were arrested by the police for beating someone up.

    I saw an opportunity and changed the locks.

    They always paid in cash I never asked for a deposit all utilities stayed in my name.
    • hasitbeen
    • By hasitbeen 9th Jan 18, 11:18 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    hasitbeen
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:18 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:18 PM
    And no I didn!!!8217;t live in the property. Only reason I sub let it was because I had to move for work.
    • Lysimache
    • By Lysimache 9th Jan 18, 11:25 PM
    • 162 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    Lysimache
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:25 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:25 PM
    When you sublet it to these dodgy folk, were you living in the house at the time (i.e. so they were lodgers not tenants and so had no rights re eviction) or were you not living in it from the very start of their time there?

    Out of interest, did your friend from last Christmas who had similar problems resolve his/her problems?
    • capital0ne
    • By capital0ne 9th Jan 18, 11:26 PM
    • 524 Posts
    • 254 Thanks
    capital0ne
    Don't forget to declare the rent you received to HMRC
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 10th Jan 18, 7:49 AM
    • 25,187 Posts
    • 68,793 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    When you sublet it to these dodgy folk, were you living in the house at the time (i.e. so they were lodgers not tenants and so had no rights re eviction) or were you not living in it from the very start of their time there?

    Out of interest, did your friend from last Christmas who had similar problems resolve his/her problems?
    Originally posted by Lysimache
    It was less than three weeks ago. Come on.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 10th Jan 18, 8:09 AM
    • 4,540 Posts
    • 2,835 Thanks
    csgohan4
    surely this is a wind up??
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land"
    • Margot123
    • By Margot123 10th Jan 18, 8:39 AM
    • 835 Posts
    • 856 Thanks
    Margot123
    surely this is a wind up??
    Originally posted by csgohan4
    It would appear that way but people do get themselves in some strange predicaments, so let's assume it's genuine.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 10th Jan 18, 8:41 AM
    • 20,321 Posts
    • 16,080 Thanks
    agrinnall
    They were arrested by the police for beating someone up.

    I saw an opportunity and changed the locks.

    They always paid in cash I never asked for a deposit all utilities stayed in my name.
    Originally posted by hasitbeen
    Illegal eviction then. Just because they are not nice people doesn't mean they don't have the same legal rights as tenants that you have yourself.
    • hasitbeen
    • By hasitbeen 10th Jan 18, 10:27 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    hasitbeen
    I stayed in the property for about two months before I moved out.

    My taxes haven't been filed for this year, but my accountant is aware so he will ensure everything is done properly as I am self employed.
    • Jenniefour
    • By Jenniefour 10th Jan 18, 10:34 AM
    • 1,311 Posts
    • 1,425 Thanks
    Jenniefour
    Can I ask a genuine question as I have seen this few times on the forum.

    What benefit is there to rent a house privately and then sublet it out?
    Originally posted by HampshireH
    Renting a whole property and letting it out as individual rooms/bedsits is a money maker - providing nothing goes wrong. Quite common/normal in some other countries apparently, but legislation re letting here means it's not a good idea, too much risk.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Jan 18, 5:01 PM
    • 44,402 Posts
    • 52,695 Thanks
    G_M
    They were arrested by the police for beating someone up.

    I saw an opportunity and changed the locks.

    They always paid in cash I never asked for a deposit all utilities stayed in my name.
    Originally posted by hasitbeen
    Then you are open to a charge of illegal eviction.

    Your tenant's problems with the police are of no relevance.

    Denying a tenant access tto their home is illegal.

    The only way you can end the tenancy is via either

    * agreement with the tenants, or
    * an order of a court, following a S8 or S21 Nottice.

    Rent arrears do not justify or excuse an illegal eviction. Nor does arrest by the police. Indeed, even if a tenant is sent to prison that too does not end the tenancy - you would still need to go to court.

    You should have used the rent arrears to issue a S8 Notice and get a court possession order.

    You are potentially in deep doodoo!

    The tenant is now back in his home where he has every right to be. I suggest you keep your fingers crossed that he does not accuse you of illegal eviction.

    If you wish to evict him, follow the correct process. Read:

    * Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?
    Last edited by G_M; 10-01-2018 at 5:07 PM.
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 10th Jan 18, 6:15 PM
    • 9,586 Posts
    • 12,899 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    I stayed in the property for about two months before I moved out.

    My taxes haven't been filed for this year, but my accountant is aware so he will ensure everything is done properly as I am self employed.
    Originally posted by hasitbeen
    Make sure you accountant (who I suspect may not be expert in landlord matters) knows you have to declare ALL the incoming rent: I doubt the rent you pay for the place would be a valid expense, but would love to hear of evidence otherwise.

    Landlords can & have gone to jail for illegal eviction: And been fined: Quite right too, sadly doesn't happen often enough.
    Last edited by theartfullodger; 10-01-2018 at 6:18 PM.
    • thelem
    • By thelem 10th Jan 18, 9:16 PM
    • 713 Posts
    • 524 Thanks
    thelem
    Coming back to the original post:

    People living in property with no agreement, no rent.
    This is incorrect. You originally agreed that they could move into the property and accepted their initial payment. This created a verbal tenancy agreement. You have now decided that you want to end that agreement.

    You need to change your mindset. So far your tenants haven't done too much legally wrong to you. They haven't paid the rent on time, but there are many reasons that can happen and the law is written in favour of the tenant, at least initially.

    I have 3 months left of the tenancy agreement.
    Can I do anything? Can the landlord do anything? to get this guy out?
    Can I somehow find a way to get my deposit back at least?
    The deposit is the least of your worries. Obviously at the moment you want to evict these tenants. What would you do if the landlord tries to evict you before you've been able to evict them? What will you do if your tenants cause damage to the property? Your landlord would expect you to pay to fix such damage, and you'd be unlikely to successfully recover that money from your tenants.

    What does your landlord know about the situation? Could you convince him to sign a new tenancy with your tenants, replacing your tenancy? Obviously you'd have to rely on him not asking for references!

    Alternatively, can you convince the tenants to leave of their own free will? Perhaps agree to write off their rent arrears and help them find a new property to move to?

    Failing that, look at eviction for rent arrears as discussed above, but don't expect it to be quick or cheap. How far behind on rent are they? The tenant who *is* paying the rent could complicate things. Do they have joint or individual contracts? I'm not sure how you'd determine that, but it could have a big impact. If it's joint then his rent payments would reduce the overall arrears. How long have the tenants been in the property? I assume they'd be treated as having a 6 month AST, so if it's more than 6 months then the friendly tenant could serve notice on behalf of the other tenants, which would at least end the tenancy.

    Hopefully this gives you some ideas about how to proceed, but you need proper legal advice. And trust anything G_M and theartfullodger say over me - they know much more about this!
    Note: Unless otherwise stated, my property related posts refer to England & Wales. Please make sure you state if you are discussing Scotland or elsewhere as laws differ.
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