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  • FIRST POST
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 3:51 PM
    • 35Posts
    • 10Thanks
    Anjistar
    Apologies for yet another new thread
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:51 PM
    Apologies for yet another new thread 9th Jan 18 at 3:51 PM
    Hello,
    Sorry again. Here's the problem as succinctly as I can.

    Car belonging to X was parked in a private road on day 1.
    On day 3, it was ticketed at 6.30am, and only that time is on the NTK.

    The Private Property signs were not seen on entry because;
    1. There was no Private Property sign at the entrance to the (dead end) road.
    2. It was dark, snowing heavily and visibility was poor.
    4. From photos taken later
    1) The first Private Property sign is placed where it was not visible from the driver's side of a small car once you were close enough to read it, being too high and facing away from the street light it was attached to.
    2) It was situated several yards from the entrance to the road, by a row of garages. As there was a similar sign on the garages opposite, it could be assumed to apply to the the garages it was next to.
    4) It was just before a speed bump sign, so the driver would have been concentrating on that.
    4) There were no markings on the road indicating parking bays or residents' numbers.

    The Notice left for the driver noted the date and time. On the front it said:
    '!Attention! Documents Enclosed.
    This is not a Parking Charge Notice.'

    On the back it said:
    'Serial Number xxxxxxxxx
    Date xx/xx/xx
    The Car Park operator has reason to believe that this vehicle is parked in contravention of the advertised Terms & Conditions. As a result a Parking Charge Notice may be issued to the Registered Keeper through the post.
    You may view details of the recorded contravention, and take the appropriate action, by visiting the website address below using the serial number stated above along with your Vehicle Registration Mark.'

    There were no Documents enclosed.

    The notice on the windscreen as described above was placed on the 15/12, the PCN/NTK arrived on the 02/01, but dated 21/12. The keeper was not at the address until a week later so missed the option for early payment should that be the way it has to go.

    Looking at POFA I thought para 8(2)(c) said there had to be a notice to driver complying with 7(2), which there clearly wasn't.

    I am also confused by the requirements with regard to the periods where notices are given, e.g. paras 8(5) and 9(5)


    I am trying very hard to make sense of the POFA but my small brain is curling up.

    Please, poverty demands that I question this charge, so any advice would be most gratefully received.

    Many thanks,
Page 2
    • whiskeytoothpaste
    • By whiskeytoothpaste 9th Jan 18, 7:14 PM
    • 60 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    whiskeytoothpaste
    My parking charge/pofa
    My understanding of pofa is that if a windscreen notice is issued then the ntk should be posted on day 29...
    Only anpr cases can ntk be sent within 14 days.
    Does this mean that vcs have met pofa requirements?
    Chin up.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Jan 18, 7:18 PM
    • 7,685 Posts
    • 7,400 Thanks
    KeithP
    My understanding of pofa is that if a windscreen notice is issued then the ntk should be posted on day 29...
    Only anpr cases can ntk be sent within 14 days.
    Does this mean that vcs have met pofa requirements?
    Originally posted by whiskeytoothpaste
    No, it does not.

    That is because VCS have managed to convince the BPA and the DVLA that the empty envelope stuck to the windscrean is not a Notice to Driver, but merely a warning that a NtK may follow in the post.
    .
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Jan 18, 7:25 PM
    • 36,806 Posts
    • 83,282 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    My understanding of pofa is that if a windscreen notice is issued then the ntk should be posted on day 29...
    Only anpr cases can ntk be sent within 14 days.
    Does this mean that vcs have met pofa requirements?
    Originally posted by whiskeytoothpaste
    This is not correct. The POFA 2012 requirements take some understanding, and many people including PPCs get it wrong.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 9th Jan 18, 10:09 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    is the NTK dated and if so is it 12 days or less after the date of the incident ?

    looking at post #1 it seems to be dated 7 days after the incident

    a shame the envelope is not postmarked with the date

    its your word against theirs
    Originally posted by Redx
    Just for the record, there are three potential options to identify the date of posting from an envelope.
    1. It the envelope uses a stamp, it should have a post mark with a date.
    2. If the envelope is sent using a franking machine, the franking indicia should have the date
    3. Almost all letters processed by Royal Mail will have a very faint series on orange lines on the envelope. This is a barcode which holds information on the item - mainly used to identify the postcode of the address. However it also holds the details of the first machine that processed it - date, time and location. NEVER THROW THE ENVELOPES AWAY.
    • whiskeytoothpaste
    • By whiskeytoothpaste 10th Jan 18, 4:48 PM
    • 60 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    whiskeytoothpaste
    I've been stung here then. I thought that the thing on the windscreen was a NTD. Therefore failing POFA as the NTK (which seems compliant) arrived on day 9.
    Believing they failed POFA I have refused to identify the driver and actually feel genuinely mislead. Their solicitors have confirmed that they are not relying on POFA but now I don't trust them. It seems that this company is ambivalent with everything it does. I'm feeling back to square one and not sure how to proceed now.
    Chin up.
    • whiskeytoothpaste
    • By whiskeytoothpaste 10th Jan 18, 4:51 PM
    • 60 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    whiskeytoothpaste
    Noooo
    I interpreted this as a NTD and because of this that they had not met POFA conditions. It seems that they want to play the law both ways. (Now I'm desperate to find a non-POFA compliant something!) I can't give up now it's been too long.
    Chin up.
    • bergkamp
    • By bergkamp 10th Jan 18, 5:02 PM
    • 182 Posts
    • 321 Thanks
    bergkamp
    I interpreted this as a NTD and because of this that they had not met POFA conditions. It seems that they want to play the law both ways. (Now I'm desperate to find a non-POFA compliant something!) I can't give up now it's been too long.
    Originally posted by whiskeytoothpaste
    They are not relying on POFA and keeper liability you said... So they know the driver s name and address then?
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 10th Jan 18, 5:08 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    Im a bit confused here. My understanding is that if they are not relying on POFA, then only the driver can be liable - and they dont know who the driver was.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Jan 18, 5:09 PM
    • 7,685 Posts
    • 7,400 Thanks
    KeithP
    Im a bit confused here. My understanding is that if they are not relying on POFA, then only the driver can be liable - and they dont know who the driver was.
    Originally posted by Joe whenjung
    That is correct.
    .
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 10th Jan 18, 5:19 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    So its all good. If they arent using POFA, they may as well be going after Dave the Butcher. He has as much liability as the registered keeper.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Jan 18, 5:25 PM
    • 17,996 Posts
    • 28,490 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    So its all good. If they arent using POFA, they may as well be going after Dave the Butcher. He has as much liability as the registered keeper.
    Originally posted by Joe whenjung
    But they will argue that the keeper is the driver by dint of !!!8216;reasonable presumption!!!8217; and quote Elliott v Loake and CPS v AJH Films - both discredited numerous times by numerous county court judges, but it doesn!!!8217;t stop them quoting the cases, leaving the defendant to ensure they cover them in their defence.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 10th Jan 18, 5:27 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    right, time for some more reading. Thanks Umkomaas
    • whiskeytoothpaste
    • By whiskeytoothpaste 10th Jan 18, 7:57 PM
    • 60 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    whiskeytoothpaste
    Thanks all. The solicitor claims they do not indend to rely on POFA but if they are compliant- What is stopping them from relying on it and changing their minds?
    They are not aware of who was driving.
    Chin up.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Jan 18, 8:03 PM
    • 7,685 Posts
    • 7,400 Thanks
    KeithP
    Thanks all. The solicitor claims they do not indend to rely on POFA but if they are compliant- What is stopping them from relying on it and changing their minds?
    Originally posted by whiskeytoothpaste
    Nothing .
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jan 18, 8:20 PM
    • 58,460 Posts
    • 71,967 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    They aren't compliant. The wording of the NTK gets the 28 day period wrong, for starters (regardless of fake 'PCN' that isn't).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • whiskeytoothpaste
    • By whiskeytoothpaste 10th Jan 18, 8:25 PM
    • 60 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    whiskeytoothpaste
    Not compliant
    What makes them not compliant? As far as I am concerned, the sticky nonsense left on the windscreen was a notice ‘to the person in charge of the vehicle’- so to the driver. This notice isnt pofa compliant (which I could argue?)but then they send out a NTK within 14 days which appears at first glance to be compliant. So, despite them stating that they are not relying on POFA they could change their minds which would leave me as keeper a bit stuffed?
    Chin up.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Jan 18, 8:26 PM
    • 17,996 Posts
    • 28,490 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I think this thread needs handing back to the OP - Anjistar - otherwise he/she will be left in the dust of off-tangent inputs.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jan 18, 10:37 PM
    • 58,460 Posts
    • 71,967 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    What makes them not compliant? As far as I am concerned, the sticky nonsense left on the windscreen was a notice !!!8216;to the person in charge of the vehicle!!!8217;- so to the driver. This notice isnt pofa compliant (which I could argue?) but then they send out a NTK within 14 days which appears at first glance to be compliant. So, despite them stating that they are not relying on POFA they could change their minds which would leave me as keeper a bit stuffed?
    Originally posted by whiskeytoothpaste
    I seem to be repeating myself endlessly tonight. I said already:

    ''The wording of the NTK gets the 28 day period wrong, for starters (regardless of fake 'PCN' that isn't).''
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 14th Jan 18, 12:08 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Anjistar
    I am feeling a little dusty, thanks, Umkomaas!

    And thanks for the envelope info, Joe whenjung, very useful

    Coupon-mad, I'm sorry, I don't understand this:

    ''The wording of the NTK gets the 28 day period wrong, for starters (regardless of fake 'PCN' that isn't).''

    In what way is the 28 day period wrong?
    And would you explain what you mean by the phrase in brackets, please. Is the PCN fake or not? How does one tell?

    Thanks very much!
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jan 18, 12:28 PM
    • 36,806 Posts
    • 83,282 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I am feeling a little dusty, thanks, Umkomaas!

    And thanks for the envelope info, Joe whenjung, very useful

    Coupon-mad, I'm sorry, I don't understand this:

    ''The wording of the NTK gets the 28 day period wrong, for starters (regardless of fake 'PCN' that isn't).''

    In what way is the 28 day period wrong?
    And would you explain what you mean by the phrase in brackets, please. Is the PCN fake or not? How does one tell?

    Thanks very much!
    Originally posted by Anjistar
    The POFA 2012 wording is very precise, and must be repeated precisely on the NTK.

    For example, if the relevant part of the POFA says, (not the actual POFA wording) "If after 28 days beginning one day after the day of the event ..." but the PPC put, "If after 29 days ..." then it does not meet the requirements of the POFA 2012 because it has not specified when the 28 or 29 days starts.
    You need to compare the wording from the POFA against the wording of the NTK to determine where it fails to meet the POFA requirements.

    The PPC has unbelievably convinced the DVLA that the notice left on the vehicle is not a notice to driver. In other words, it's not a PCN, it's a fake PCN, hence C-m's comment in brackets.

    What none of us here can understand is how a notice left on a vehicle that will be seen by the driver, is not a notice to driver, yet the DVLA have accepted that it is.
    It smells of waterborne creatures to me.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-01-2018 at 12:30 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
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