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  • FIRST POST
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 3:51 PM
    • 35Posts
    • 10Thanks
    Anjistar
    Apologies for yet another new thread
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:51 PM
    Apologies for yet another new thread 9th Jan 18 at 3:51 PM
    Hello,
    Sorry again. Here's the problem as succinctly as I can.

    Car belonging to X was parked in a private road on day 1.
    On day 3, it was ticketed at 6.30am, and only that time is on the NTK.

    The Private Property signs were not seen on entry because;
    1. There was no Private Property sign at the entrance to the (dead end) road.
    2. It was dark, snowing heavily and visibility was poor.
    4. From photos taken later
    1) The first Private Property sign is placed where it was not visible from the driver's side of a small car once you were close enough to read it, being too high and facing away from the street light it was attached to.
    2) It was situated several yards from the entrance to the road, by a row of garages. As there was a similar sign on the garages opposite, it could be assumed to apply to the the garages it was next to.
    4) It was just before a speed bump sign, so the driver would have been concentrating on that.
    4) There were no markings on the road indicating parking bays or residents' numbers.

    The Notice left for the driver noted the date and time. On the front it said:
    '!Attention! Documents Enclosed.
    This is not a Parking Charge Notice.'

    On the back it said:
    'Serial Number xxxxxxxxx
    Date xx/xx/xx
    The Car Park operator has reason to believe that this vehicle is parked in contravention of the advertised Terms & Conditions. As a result a Parking Charge Notice may be issued to the Registered Keeper through the post.
    You may view details of the recorded contravention, and take the appropriate action, by visiting the website address below using the serial number stated above along with your Vehicle Registration Mark.'

    There were no Documents enclosed.

    The notice on the windscreen as described above was placed on the 15/12, the PCN/NTK arrived on the 02/01, but dated 21/12. The keeper was not at the address until a week later so missed the option for early payment should that be the way it has to go.

    Looking at POFA I thought para 8(2)(c) said there had to be a notice to driver complying with 7(2), which there clearly wasn't.

    I am also confused by the requirements with regard to the periods where notices are given, e.g. paras 8(5) and 9(5)


    I am trying very hard to make sense of the POFA but my small brain is curling up.

    Please, poverty demands that I question this charge, so any advice would be most gratefully received.

    Many thanks,
Page 1
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Jan 18, 3:58 PM
    • 2,409 Posts
    • 4,285 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:58 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:58 PM
    Which parking company?
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 4:00 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Anjistar
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:00 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:00 PM
    Which parking company?
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    VCS is the one.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jan 18, 4:08 PM
    • 18,327 Posts
    • 23,207 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:08 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:08 PM
    VCS use a complicated and confusing system where the myparkingcharge notice is placed on the windscreen and is not an NTD as defined in POFA2012

    so this is why no documents are enclosed and why VCS will try to send their NTK to a keeper within 14 days as defined under POFA2012

    if you are appealing (as a paper excercise only) then use the black text IPC template in the NEWBIES sticky thread

    if you want to understand this scam , put myparkingcharge into the drop down forum search box , where it has come up dozens of times already

    so just to be clear, the windscreen ticket is not an NTD under POFA2012 , so the NTK within 14 days applies

    as an IPC member , use the black text appeal, but do not expect a cancellation , and the IAS is pointless for ADR
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 4:11 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Anjistar
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:11 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:11 PM
    VCS use a complicated and confusing system where the myparkingcharge notice is placed on the windscreen and is not an NTD as defined in POFA2012

    so this is why no documents are enclosed and why VCS will try to send their NTK to a keeper within 14 days as defined under POFA2012

    if you are appealing (as a paper excercise only) then use the black text IPC template in the NEWBIES sticky thread

    if you want to understand this scam , put myparkingcharge into the drop down forum search box , where it has come up dozens of times already

    so just to be clear, the windscreen ticket is not an NTD under POFA2012 , so the NTK within 14 days applies

    as an IPC member , use the black text appeal, but do not expect a cancellation , and the IAS is pointless for ADR
    Originally posted by Redx
    So are you saying we should just pay it?

    Or wait and see if it goes to court? If the latter, do we have enough to win?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jan 18, 4:19 PM
    • 18,327 Posts
    • 23,207 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:19 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:19 PM
    no I am not saying it should be paid , we never tell people to pay

    nobody can tell you if you will win in court, that is impossible to predict

    you will get free advice here , but its rare to get legal advice for free about these matters , and no solicitor would tell you if you can win or not without seeing ALL of the evidence presented by both sides, and so far you have not produced yours and VCS will definitely not produce theirs until its set for a hearing in your local court

    even then , that solicitor cannot predict what judge bingo will decide , hence why BEAVIS lost , 3 times , in 3 courts
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 4:48 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Anjistar
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:48 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:48 PM
    That's fine, I don't expect free legal advice at all!
    It's just so confusing as so many details don't apply to us on the IPC template.

    And the PCN/NTK arrived so long after the date on the Notice that the keeper doesn't have the option to pay a reduced amount, even if they wanted to take the easy way out and do so. It appears therre's no appeal against that.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 9th Jan 18, 4:53 PM
    • 4,387 Posts
    • 4,422 Thanks
    DoaM
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:53 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:53 PM
    The reason things differ is that at least with a BPA member operator (blue appeal wording) you have a) a semblance of a chance of your initial appeal being accepted, and b) a reasonable chance of a POPLA appeal being accepted.

    With an IPC member operator the chances of a) succeeding are slim, and b) is virtually non-existent.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jan 18, 4:56 PM
    • 18,327 Posts
    • 23,207 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:56 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:56 PM
    if VCS failed POFA2012 then as keeper you are not liable for the charge ( only the driver is liable and so do not reveal their details , to anyone , especially not on here ) , hence all those questions asked in the black text template to VCS

    it is for a parking company to prove their case against the person they invoiced, or they fail

    so if the NTK did not arrive by day 15 , they failed POFA2012 and as keeper you dont have to do anything and the keeper is not liable under the law

    but the initial appeal is just to show a judge that you did not ignore this invoice and tried to deal with it by engaging with the PPC

    VCS have 6 years to try to enforce the charge using MCOL
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 4:58 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Anjistar
    So, on another tack, if the keeper were to appeal on MPC, using the 'Charge notice failed to arrive' option and sent this:

    The Charge Notice arrived leter than 14 days after the Issue date, thereby denying the keeper the option of a reduced payment.
    Should the keeper decide to waive the submission of evidence that the signage was inadequate and pay the charge, it would only be the reduced amount as they were not given that option due to the late arrival of the PCN/NTK.
    Should your client care to reinstate the lower amount, the keeper will consider it, in a gesture of goodwill and to avoid wasting their own, the client's and possibly the court's time.

    Is that ridiculous or worth a shot?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Jan 18, 4:59 PM
    • 7,667 Posts
    • 7,374 Thanks
    KeithP
    As the NtK arrived after 14 days after the incident, there is no keeper liability.

    This means that as long as the driver isn't identified, the PPC will have great trouble getting any money from anyone.



    Is that ridiculous or worth a shot?
    Originally posted by Anjistar
    It's ridiculous.
    Why on earth are you considering paying anything?

    Send the black template appeal without change.
    Last edited by KeithP; 09-01-2018 at 5:03 PM.
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jan 18, 5:03 PM
    • 18,327 Posts
    • 23,207 Thanks
    Redx
    the golden rule is to use the black text appeal with IPC members , then IGNORE everything else EXCEPT a formal LBC sent using the new PaP rules from oct 2017 , or an MCOL from the CCBC in Northampton , within 6 years

    nothing else is viable and as keeper you owe nothing if they failed to use the law called POFA2012 to make the keeper liable, so it is pojntless a keeper engaging with them apart from using the template , once and once only

    if they knew who was driving they would pursue that person and POFA2012 would not be of any use
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 5:05 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Anjistar
    As the NtK arrived after 14 days after the incident, there is no keeper liability.

    This means that as long as the driver isn't identified, the PPC will have great trouble getting any money from anyone.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Would you clarify, is it 14 days after the incident or after the issue of the PCN/NTK? And is that working days only?
    Last edited by Anjistar; 09-01-2018 at 5:12 PM. Reason: extra information/query
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jan 18, 5:06 PM
    • 18,327 Posts
    • 23,207 Thanks
    Redx
    is the NTK dated and if so is it 12 days or less after the date of the incident ?

    looking at post #1 it seems to be dated 7 days after the incident

    a shame the envelope is not postmarked with the date

    its your word against theirs
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 5:15 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Anjistar
    It's dated 6 days after the incident but didn't arrive until 15 days later, 21 days after the alleged offence.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jan 18, 5:20 PM
    • 18,327 Posts
    • 23,207 Thanks
    Redx
    POFA2012 schedule 4 tells you the timeline for an NTK to arrive with the recipient , and that is by day 15 where the date of the incident is day zero , so it seems to have been delayed in the xmas post, unfortunately you cannot prove this and the letter is presumed delivered (in law) 2 days later

    so if they can prove it was posted on dec 21st or thereabouts , then they could easily convince a judge they complied with POFA2012 by ensuring it was posted in good time and is PRESUMED delivered 2 days later according to the legal rules (Unless proven otherwise), despite the bank holidays

    nothing you can say or do will change all this , so stop pushing against the tide

    appeal once with the template and then ignore unless you get an LBC or an MCOL in the post , within 6 years

    the debt collection letter stage follows the initial appeal, this is an impasse where neither side gives an inch - debt letters can be ignored, they are powerless
    Last edited by Redx; 13-01-2018 at 7:08 PM. Reason: deemed changed to PRESUMED
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Jan 18, 5:25 PM
    • 2,748 Posts
    • 3,411 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Presumed delivered

    Unless proven otherwise.

    Prove oTherwise. A witness statement signed under penalty of perjury would be proof.
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 5:33 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Anjistar
    Well, I took my courage in both hands and sent the IPC appeal form.

    Will post back if anything transpires.

    Thanks so much for all the help so far, much appreciated.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Jan 18, 5:36 PM
    • 18,327 Posts
    • 23,207 Thanks
    Redx
    dont get your hopes up , its likely to be a refusal and may ask for the drivers details and may offer the IAS for adr

    you are now on the end of their hook and wriggling like the bait, they wont reel you in just yet and may leave you to thrash about and tire you out for the next 72 months , with threats of armageddon and the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, plus the empty threat of a CCJ ruining your credit rating

    KEEP ALL PAPERWORK and take pictures of signage etc asap , start to gather and keep your evidence as if preparing for a court case (MCOL)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Anjistar
    • By Anjistar 9th Jan 18, 5:45 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Anjistar
    I have 24 photos of the area around where the car was parked, and all the correspondence so far. I am keeping a diary of all actions and dates so it's easy to remember when I did what.
    Many thanks. I shall try not to wriggle too much - don't want them getting too much enjoyment out of this....
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