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  • FIRST POST
    • demonted
    • By demonted 9th Jan 18, 3:04 PM
    • 150Posts
    • 16Thanks
    demonted
    Online Banking: is onus on user to ensure OS or software is up to date ?
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:04 PM
    Online Banking: is onus on user to ensure OS or software is up to date ? 9th Jan 18 at 3:04 PM
    Should an online bank account or maybe even a credit card account or any other online account be compromised, hacked and funds lost, stolen or fraudulent transactions incurred, could the online bank or organisation refuse to refund/reimburse due to the account holder
    accessing their online account via a mobile phone, tablet, laptop or computer which did not have the most up to date software or operating system installed ?
Page 2
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 10th Jan 18, 9:56 AM
    • 1,292 Posts
    • 740 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    The T's and C's tell you to meet their requirements.

    They then have a requirements page that lists compatible browsers, versions etc on.

    It's not difficult to fathom out
    • demonted
    • By demonted 10th Jan 18, 10:04 AM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    The T's and C's tell you to meet their requirements.

    They then have a requirements page that lists compatible browsers, versions etc on.

    It's not difficult to fathom out
    Originally posted by Gary_Dexter
    As it's not so difficult to fathom out; can you please provide a link to such requirements, as I can't find this information from my own Online Bank Service, nor could I find it on the Nationwide Online Bank Service.
    • beefturnmail
    • By beefturnmail 10th Jan 18, 10:06 AM
    • 703 Posts
    • 223 Thanks
    beefturnmail
    OP see here for the list of Nationwide requirements https://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/support-articles/security/browser-help.

    It response to your original q it's likely a bit of a grey area, though to be on the safe side I wouldn't use XP to access internet banking - XP is no longer supported
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 10th Jan 18, 10:08 AM
    • 1,292 Posts
    • 740 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    As it's not so difficult to fathom out; can you please provide a link to such requirements, as I can't find this information from my own Online Bank Service, nor could I find it on the Nationwide Online Bank Service.
    Originally posted by demonted
    Who is "your own" online banking service?

    So far you've neglected to say who it is
    • demonted
    • By demonted 10th Jan 18, 10:30 AM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    Who is "your own" online banking service?

    So far you've neglected to say who it is
    Originally posted by Gary_Dexter
    Because I dont believe it necessary as I now know it is not displayed within my own Online Banking T&Cs.

    Therefore, I'm requesting forum members to share their knowledge and experience and provide links to any T&Cs which specifically state that a device used to access Online Banking must be running an up to date OS rather than it be implied or interpreted.

    I believe there are many user like myself that don't rush out to update their OS the moment a new one is released.

    Only now am I beginning to realise the implications of not updating my smartphone: a device that's working perfectly only for it to become obsolete by its OS



    Also, you've neglected to provide a link to what you claim is so easy to fathom out.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 10th Jan 18, 10:36 AM
    • 20,321 Posts
    • 16,080 Thanks
    agrinnall
    RBS never invested in their systems under Godwin's leadership. Probably why they ended up in the mess that they did. As there was no immediate visibility across the whole group.
    Originally posted by Thrugelmir
    Depends what you mean by 'invested'. There was certainly a hell of a lot of money spent by Group Technology during Fred's reign, a very small part of it on me, but whether it was spent on the right things (apart from me of course ) is another matter. And it's pretty clear that cost cutting measures to get rid of UK staff and outsource vital services to India were a catastrophic mistake.
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 10th Jan 18, 10:54 AM
    • 1,292 Posts
    • 740 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    Because I dont believe it necessary as I now know it is not displayed within my own Online Banking T&Cs.

    Therefore, I'm requesting forum members to share their knowledge and experience and provide links to any T&Cs which specifically state that a device used to access Online Banking must be running an up to date OS rather than it be implied or interpreted.

    I believe there are many user like myself that don't rush out to update their OS the moment a new one is released.

    Only now am I beginning to realise the implications of not updating my smartphone: a device that's working perfectly only for it to become obsolete by its OS



    Also, you've neglected to provide a link to what you claim is so easy to fathom out.
    Originally posted by demonted
    Then we can't help if you refuse to provide information.

    I've given information - if you choose to ignore or mis-interpret it then that's up to you.

    If you want links, do what I did - researched it myself rather than relying on other people
    • badger09
    • By badger09 10th Jan 18, 12:23 PM
    • 6,002 Posts
    • 5,352 Thanks
    badger09
    OP see here for the list of Nationwide requirements https://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/support-articles/security/browser-help.

    It response to your original q it's likely a bit of a grey area, though to be on the safe side I wouldn't use XP to access internet banking - XP is no longer supported
    Originally posted by beefturnmail
    Interesting discussion. My PC is always up to date but like many others, I don't automatically update my phone's IOS as soon as there's a new release.

    I see that linked article doesn't include Microsoft Edge under 'browsers we support'. Does that mean Nationwide hasn't kept up to date

    Apologies for minor sidetrack.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 10th Jan 18, 1:15 PM
    • 20,321 Posts
    • 16,080 Thanks
    agrinnall

    I see that linked article doesn't include Microsoft Edge under 'browsers we support'. Does that mean Nationwide hasn't kept up to date
    Originally posted by badger09
    From the Nationwide page (my bold):

    "The links below are some of the browsers we support, although they're not specifically recommended by Nationwide."
    • demonted
    • By demonted 10th Jan 18, 1:26 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    Then we can't help if you refuse to provide information.

    I've given information - if you choose to ignore or mis-interpret it then that's up to you.

    If you want links, do what I did - researched it myself rather than relying on other people
    Originally posted by Gary_Dexter

    Gary_Dexter.... You have still neglected to provide a link to support what you claim is so easy to fathom out.


    I have search my own Online Bank T&Cs and also searched Google, yet never found the answer to my query, therefore I request assistance from forum members who may of already encountered the situation I refer to, who can provide a link to their own Online Bank T&Cs which specifically state that a device used to access an Online Bank account must be running the most recent and up to OS, otherwise a claim for fraudulent transactions or theft will not be reimbursed, rather than receive an unfounded and unsupported opinion from someone like yourself.

    As most Banks seem to be connected one way or another, such as the Lloyds Group or the RBS Group, I believed Online Banking T&Cs would be the same if not very similar for a number of banks within the groups.



    However, Gary_Dexter, I appreciate your input, you've expressed your opinion by your own volition; you're not oblidged to contribute to this thread if you don't wish to.
    Last edited by demonted; 10-01-2018 at 1:30 PM.
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 10th Jan 18, 2:13 PM
    • 1,292 Posts
    • 740 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    I've posted extracts in my posts above.

    And to be as cryptic as you, one of those may, or may not, be from my bank.

    If you feel so kind as to actually say who your bank is, rather than all the secrecy, then I can have a look myself as well

    Why would anyone feel obliged to post a link to their own bank when you fail to mention yours is beyond me
    • demonted
    • By demonted 10th Jan 18, 3:17 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    I've posted extracts in my posts above.

    And to be as cryptic as you, one of those may, or may not, be from my bank.

    If you feel so kind as to actually say who your bank is, rather than all the secrecy, then I can have a look myself as well

    Why would anyone feel obliged to post a link to their own bank when you fail to mention yours is beyond me
    Originally posted by Gary_Dexter

    Gary_Dexter..... You seem to be doing all you can to discredit my thread.

    There is no secrecy on my part.

    You may of provided extracts but you have not provided any supporting evidence which specifically states an Online Bank user must ensure their device is running the latest OS.

    Nor have you provided confirmation which states a claim for reimbursement of fraudulent transactions or theft would be rejected should it be revealed or discovered that the Online Bank Account holder had failed to install the latest OS on the device used to access their Online Bank Account and still using the outdated OS when the theft or fraudulent transactions occurred.

    Also, I'm more than capable of reading the T&Cs of my own Online Bank and I don't need yourself to read them for me.

    Should anyone post a link to an Online Banking T&Cs which confirms or dispels my query, there is no need for a forum member to state it's actually the T&Cs of their own Online Bank.

    However, Gary_Dexter, to prevent your frustration, to stop you wasting your time and as I don't want this thread to result in an online argument, especially one without T&Cs, please stop contributing to my thread

    In fact, from now on, I will not respond to post made by yourself to this thread.
    Last edited by demonted; 10-01-2018 at 3:23 PM.
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 10th Jan 18, 3:50 PM
    • 1,292 Posts
    • 740 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    I'm done anyways.

    Carry on living in your bubble with your tinfoil hat on.

    Toodles!
    • binaryuniverse
    • By binaryuniverse 10th Jan 18, 4:56 PM
    • 685 Posts
    • 433 Thanks
    binaryuniverse
    You may of provided extracts but you have not provided any supporting evidence which specifically states an Online Bank user must ensure their device is running the latest OS.
    Originally posted by demonted
    A bank doesn't need to specify this. Your device is your responsibility. End of.
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 10th Jan 18, 10:37 PM
    • 529 Posts
    • 315 Thanks
    18cc
    I think one has to separate the desktop from the mobile.

    The mobile access is considered safer - you are using the banks own app which is regularly updated (usually whether you like it or not!). the 'old' version of the app usually stops working after a while so you are always pretty much on the latest version.

    Desktops are another matter. I don't think it matters that you have the latest OS - indeed I don't think any bank specifies you need Windows 10 Fall creators update v1709 or you can't use internet banking. Windows 7 is allowed - or at least, not specifically prohibited. What most say or imply is to keep you security updates and antivirus up to date. In any case it's a minefield which is why an app on your mobile is much much safer.
    • demonted
    • By demonted 11th Jan 18, 12:38 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    I agree an Online Banking app is probably much safer.
    I mentioned previously that as apps are updated regularly, the latest app would probably fail to install or not operate on a device running an outdated OS.

    However, although I'm relatively aware of all the latest tech, I very rarely use my computer, especially since I got a smartphone, therefore, I didn't deem it necessary to update the OS; although from time to time I still access Online Banking via a web browser on my computer; that's a computer still running Windows XP.

    As for my smartphone, I didn't realise by not updating its OS apps would eventually fail to operate or install, but as I don't tend to use apps, it didn't matter anyway.

    When I access my Online Banking via my smartphone, I do so using its per installed web browser and the Online Banking website automatically displays a mobile compatible view.

    In regard to banking, I've read many an article when the elderly have lost their life saving due to fraud and the Bank refuses to reimburse because the elderly victim had foolishly divulged their password during a bogus telephone call.

    It's articles such as this and the recent press coverage of the Meltdown and Spectre security flaws which got me thinking, thus, wondering as to whether a Bank or any other type of financial organisation which provides an Online Management facility, could use a clause of "failing to install the latest OS" as a reason not to reimburse a victim of online theft or fraud, which has occurred as a results of their online account being hacked. !

    I didn't post such a question on this forum to cause conflict or to be denigrated; I genuinely believe there must be many Online Bank users like myself, who are unwittingly using outdated OS and not realising the risk; although, due to previous experience, I honestly believe, there's more chance of an organisation doing all it can to refuse reimbursement to online fraud victims, than an online account actually being hacked.

    In regard to T&Cs, they cannot be assumed, implied or interpreted; when T&Cs form a part of a legal contract, they have to clearly state their meaning and what they actually refer to, otherwise an interpretation would be never ending.

    However, it does appear that "System Requirements" doesn't actually fall within the legal realms of T&Cs.
    Last edited by demonted; 11-01-2018 at 1:52 PM.
    • JSR
    • By JSR 11th Jan 18, 2:44 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    JSR
    Well the terms say "take all reasonable measures to keep it virus free". To me that would mean running a supported operating system and browser and ensuring automatic security updates are enabled for both (or you install them immediately some other way). For Windows that means Windows 7 or later and the latest version of whichever browser you are using.

    On the other hand, is it reasonable for customers to know this? What are banks doing to educate their customers of the risk of running unsupported software? Banks can easily detect if a customer is using old, unsupported software. If you try to log-in from a Windows XP PC is there a warning message to tell you that what you are doing is risky? Are you blocked altogether from entering your password and access codes? If not, IMO, the bank shares in the responsibility. But I guess in the end it would be for the ombudsman to decide.
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 11th Jan 18, 3:05 PM
    • 529 Posts
    • 315 Thanks
    18cc
    Well if anyone wants my advice - and they probably dont - i would advise them to use the banking app on their mobile phone whenever possible and only use the desktop (or web browser on their phone) if absolutely necessary.
    • demonted
    • By demonted 11th Jan 18, 3:16 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    My computer and also my mobile phone are still operating perfectly and are both capable of accessing the internet via web browsers and can both log into Online Banking and Credit Card websites without warnings; although since I've become aware of the risk, especially since the Meltdown and Spectre security issues, I've not used my devices to access my Bank or Credit Card accounts.

    If it wasn't for the press and media coverage of Meltdown and Spectre security flaws, I would have carried on regardless.

    In regard to "take all reasonable measures to keep it virus free" doesn't actually make reference to installing and using the most up to date or at least a recent OS and what you believe is required is your interpretation, which may be a different understanding or interpretation by the next person.
    • JSR
    • By JSR 11th Jan 18, 5:05 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    JSR
    In regard to "take all reasonable measures to keep it virus free" doesn't actually make reference to installing and using the most up to date or at least a recent OS and what you believe is required is your interpretation, which may be a different understanding or interpretation by the next person.
    Yep, that's why I said what reasonable means to me. Obviously the banks don't define reasonable so you're not going to get a definitive answer. But if you're knowingly using an insecure OS like XP to access your bank account and you are defrauded because of it - would you really think you took all reasonable measures? Emphasis on knowingly, btw. You might be doing it unknowingly and then the question is whose job is it to educate you about the risks you are taking? The bank can do it easily. They can stop you logging in from an XP machine and putting your credentials at risk. But since they don't do that maybe it is they who didn't take all reasonable measures, not you.
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