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  • FIRST POST
    • demonted
    • By demonted 9th Jan 18, 3:04 PM
    • 150Posts
    • 16Thanks
    demonted
    Online Banking: is onus on user to ensure OS or software is up to date ?
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:04 PM
    Online Banking: is onus on user to ensure OS or software is up to date ? 9th Jan 18 at 3:04 PM
    Should an online bank account or maybe even a credit card account or any other online account be compromised, hacked and funds lost, stolen or fraudulent transactions incurred, could the online bank or organisation refuse to refund/reimburse due to the account holder
    accessing their online account via a mobile phone, tablet, laptop or computer which did not have the most up to date software or operating system installed ?
Page 1
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 9th Jan 18, 3:23 PM
    • 534 Posts
    • 324 Thanks
    18cc
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:23 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:23 PM
    what do the account t and c for online banking say.
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 9th Jan 18, 3:26 PM
    • 1,328 Posts
    • 772 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:26 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:26 PM
    Yes

    Most banks state the onus is on the user to ensure their systems are secure and up to date
    • demonted
    • By demonted 9th Jan 18, 5:06 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 5:06 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 5:06 PM
    Well, I've never read the T & C's of anything, well, such as bank account, credit cards, phone contract etc, and I don't think, although we all should, many of us do; I just briefly scan any such T & C's believing to an extent I can trust any such organisations, after all, my bank has all my money.

    In regard to updating software and operating systems; although to an extent I'm tech savvy, I don't tend to update just for the sake of it, although now, especially due to the current Spectre and Meltdown security flaws and due to online banking and financial institutions looking at ways to shirk their responsibility and place the onus on a user to ensure all devices are updated, I guess I should, we all should, that is, ensure devices are updated regularly.

    Or are such security alers and updates an industry conspiracy to scare users to update and/or replace perfectly functioning devices un-necessarily ?
    Last edited by demonted; 09-01-2018 at 9:07 PM.
    • Shakin Steve
    • By Shakin Steve 9th Jan 18, 8:07 PM
    • 1,456 Posts
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    Shakin Steve
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:07 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:07 PM
    Well, I've never read the T & C's of anything, well, such as bank account, credit cards, phone contract etc, and I don't think, although we all should, many of us do; I just briefly scan any such T & C's believing to an extent I can trust any such organisations, after all, my bank has all my money.

    In regard to updating software and operating systems; although to an extent I'm tech savvy, I don't tend to update just for the sake of it, although now, especially due to the current Spectre and Meltdown security flaws and due to online banking and financial institutions looking at ways to shirk their responsibly and place the onus on a user to ensure all devices are updated, I guess I should, we all should, that is, ensure devices are updated regularly.

    Or are such security alers and updates an industry conspiracy to scare users to update and/or replace perfectly functioning devices un-necessarily ?
    Originally posted by demonted
    www.acmetinhats.com
    I came into this world with nothing and I've got most of it left.
    • demonted
    • By demonted 9th Jan 18, 8:24 PM
    • 150 Posts
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    demonted
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:24 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:24 PM
    Originally posted by Shakin Steve
    What does this mean....
    • Shakin Steve
    • By Shakin Steve 9th Jan 18, 8:44 PM
    • 1,456 Posts
    • 1,200 Thanks
    Shakin Steve
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:44 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:44 PM
    What does this mean....
    Originally posted by demonted
    Itís where you can buy your tin hat(s).
    I came into this world with nothing and I've got most of it left.
    • demonted
    • By demonted 9th Jan 18, 9:15 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 9:15 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 9:15 PM
    Everybody should update their operating systems regardless. It is not the job of the banks.

    RBS Group really should update their operating system with the IT problems they get.
    Originally posted by wearingjohnnies
    I never said it was the banks responsibility to update our operating system.

    wearingjohnnies..... I bet you won't be so keen to defend the banks if your saving were stolen by hackers and your bank refused to reimburse because you had failed to install the latest OS or banking app on your device/s.
    • zerog
    • By zerog 9th Jan 18, 9:35 PM
    • 2,367 Posts
    • 821 Thanks
    zerog
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 9:35 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 9:35 PM
    Updating software does not mean that the newer version is more secure. It could easily be less secure if new bugs are introduced.

    Having auto updates is all part of a move to a subscription model of software where you will need to pay a monthly fee to use any programs or apps rather than just buying it once and being able to use it for 10-20 years. This is already the case for some software like Adobe products.
    • demonted
    • By demonted 9th Jan 18, 11:12 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    I've just read the online banking T&C's of my bank via their website and unless I've missed something, although I read the T&Cs twice, there appears to be no mention that requires a user of their online banking to ensure that banking apps, OS or software is of the latest version.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 9th Jan 18, 11:24 PM
    • 58,964 Posts
    • 52,284 Thanks
    Thrugelmir
    RBS Group really should update their operating system with the IT problems they get.
    Originally posted by wearingjohnnies
    RBS never invested in their systems under Godwin's leadership. Probably why they ended up in the mess that they did. As there was no immediate visibility across the whole group.
    Financial disasters happen when the last person who can remember what went wrong last time has left the building.
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 9th Jan 18, 11:26 PM
    • 1,328 Posts
    • 772 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    Some do.

    Nationwide:

    2. Internet Banking Service

    2.1 You can access our Internet Banking service provided the equipment you use meets our minimum compatibility requirements (full details are available at www.nationwide.co.uk/internet_banking). You must ensure your equipment continues to meet these requirements, that it remains fully operational and that you take all reasonable measures to keep it virus free.

    HSBC:

    3. Your security details
    3.1 You must take all reasonable precautions to keep safe and prevent fraudulent use of your OB security details (this will include your username, PINs, passwords and other security information).
    3.2 These precautions include, but are not limited to all of the following:

    !!!8226; keep your personal computer secure by using anti-virus and anti-spyware software and a personal firewall;

    Barclays:

    Make sure any device you use to access Online Banking complies with the standards and requirements we tell you about from time to time
    !!!8226; Carry out your own regular virus checks and security updates using antivirus software !!!8211; we recommend you download the free software we offer our customers



    Etc.

    Google will help
    • Eco Miser
    • By Eco Miser 10th Jan 18, 12:18 AM
    • 3,444 Posts
    • 3,234 Thanks
    Eco Miser
    None of which requires the latest OS version.
    Eco Miser
    Saving money for well over half a century
    • demonted
    • By demonted 10th Jan 18, 12:42 AM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    Some do.

    Nationwide:

    2. Internet Banking Service

    2.1 You can access our Internet Banking service provided the equipment you use meets our minimum compatibility requirements (full details are available at www.nationwide.co.uk/internet_banking). You must ensure your equipment continues to meet these requirements, that it remains fully operational and that you take all reasonable measures to keep it virus free.

    HSBC:

    3. Your security details
    3.1 You must take all reasonable precautions to keep safe and prevent fraudulent use of your OB security details (this will include your username, PINs, passwords and other security information).
    3.2 These precautions include, but are not limited to all of the following:

    !!!8226; keep your personal computer secure by using anti-virus and anti-spyware software and a personal firewall;

    Barclays:

    Make sure any device you use to access Online Banking complies with the standards and requirements we tell you about from time to time
    !!!8226; Carry out your own regular virus checks and security updates using antivirus software !!!8211; we recommend you download the free software we offer our customers



    Etc.

    Google will help
    Originally posted by Gary_Dexter


    Although Barclays makes reference to security updates; there's still nothing that specifically states that an Online Banking user must ensure that the latest OS is installed on the device used to access the Online Bank Service.

    Nor is there an indication as to whether a user is!liable for fraudulent losses or theft!should their Bank Account be hacked whilst accessing the Online Banking Services via an outdated OS or software installed on the users device.

    All examples provided. appear to make reference to either viruses or spyware and to ensure antivirus and anti-spyware software is up to date and updated regularly.

    In regard to Nationwide, although it's stated that!equipment used must meet their minimum compatibility requirements and a web address is provided to view such requirements (www.nationwide.co.uk/internet_banking) it actually reveals nothing, although, yet again, Nationwide makes reference to ensuring that equipment used is virus free rather than stating an Online Bank user must access Online Banking via the latest OS.

    In fact, the Nationwide Online Banking T&Cs are more or less identical to that of my own bank.



    I guess your Google search wasn't so helpful after all.
    • binaryuniverse
    • By binaryuniverse 10th Jan 18, 6:34 AM
    • 686 Posts
    • 434 Thanks
    binaryuniverse
    You're basically asking if the bank should accept responsibility for your device/software not being up to date, and susceptible to security risks?

    If the bank provides you software to use, and your account is broken in to, due to a bug in that software, then the bank would accept responsibility.
    If your account is compromised due to a lax approach to updating your own device, that's your responsibility. You don't need a T&C to state that, and you'd be welcome to challenge it in court and see how far it gets you.

    I can't think of a single company that would accept responsibility for you not doing something, when it is provided.
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 10th Jan 18, 9:14 AM
    • 1,328 Posts
    • 772 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    None of which requires the latest OS version.
    Originally posted by Eco Miser
    Actually yes - if the requirements for Online Banking are, for example, Windows 8/8/10 or newer and Internet Explorer version 11, Edge, Firefox version XX, Chrome version XX etc.

    Then this would constitute having an up to date OS to run said things
    • Gary_Dexter
    • By Gary_Dexter 10th Jan 18, 9:15 AM
    • 1,328 Posts
    • 772 Thanks
    Gary_Dexter
    Although Barclays makes reference to security updates; there's still nothing that specifically states that an Online Banking user must ensure that the latest OS is installed on the device used to access the Online Bank Service.
    Originally posted by demonted
    A Security Update is an update that is in Windows, delivered by Windows Update.

    Thus updating your OS
    • demonted
    • By demonted 10th Jan 18, 9:29 AM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    You're basically asking if the bank should accept responsibility for your device/software not being up to date, and susceptible to security risks?

    If the bank provides you software to use, and your account is broken in to, due to a bug in that software, then the bank would accept responsibility.
    If your account is compromised due to a lax approach to updating your own device, that's your responsibility. You don't need a T&C to state that, and you'd be welcome to challenge it in court and see how far it gets you.

    I can't think of a single company that would accept responsibility for you not doing something, when it is provided.
    Originally posted by binaryuniverse
    I'm not asking if it's the Banks responsibility to ensure my device is up to date.

    I'm wondering as to whether the Online Bank or a similar type service can refuse to reimburse a victim of theft or fraudulent transactions as a result of a hacked account, should it be discovered that the account holder/victim accessed their Online Account via a device running an outdated OS.!

    Although, you " can't think of a single company that would accept responsibility for the user not doing something, when it is provided" !this does appear to be your opinion rather than a specific clause within the Online Bank T&Cs.

    At present I've not been a victim of theft or fraud, nor, as far as I'm aware, has my Online Bank been compromised, however, since the Meltdown and Spectra chip security flaws, I began to wonder; as my mobile phone, uses most often to access my Online Bank, has never been updated since I got it and my computer still running Windows XP.

    I'm not looking to argue with forum members in regard to this issue and I certainly didn't realise it would be such a complex and contentious issue, however, currently, I guess until the Online Banking Authority read this thread and based upon what I've read so far, there does not appear to be a specific clause or requirement within the Online Banks T&Cs that a user of such a service must ensure that the device used to access the Online Banking Service, especially via a web browser, must be running the latest OS for their device.
    • demonted
    • By demonted 10th Jan 18, 9:43 AM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    A Security Update is an update that is in Windows, delivered by Windows Update.

    Thus updating your OS
    Originally posted by Gary_Dexter
    So only users of MS Window devices must ensure an updated OS is installed ?

    What is the requirement of users of Apple or Android devices and users who prefer to use a Linux-based system ?

    I would assume a clause or term within T&Cs, especially if used to defend a refusal to reimburse a victim cannot be implied or relied upon a readers interpretation of any such clause.
    Last edited by demonted; 10-01-2018 at 9:50 AM.
    • demonted
    • By demonted 10th Jan 18, 9:47 AM
    • 150 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    demonted
    Actually yes - if the requirements for Online Banking are, for example, Windows 8/8/10 or newer and Internet Explorer version 11, Edge, Firefox version XX, Chrome version XX etc.

    Then this would constitute having an up to date OS to run said things
    Originally posted by Gary_Dexter

    Can you link to the Online Bank which actually states this within their Online Banking T&Cs ?

    Although your examples appears not to consider users of smartphones and in my opinion, nowadays most users tend to access Inline Banking via a smartphone.

    I'm aware a smartphone app probably won't run on a phone with an outdated OS but the very same smartphone can still access Online Banking via its web browser.
    Last edited by demonted; 10-01-2018 at 9:58 AM.
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