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  • FIRST POST
    • JonesLee
    • By JonesLee 8th Jan 18, 12:25 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 2Thanks
    JonesLee
    Britannia Parking, to late to use MSE?
    • #1
    • 8th Jan 18, 12:25 PM
    Britannia Parking, to late to use MSE? 8th Jan 18 at 12:25 PM
    Hi, after reading the sticky i noticed that it states never tell them who was driving the vehicle, or give them any information. Before coming to MSE i sent an appeal to Britannia Parking, which on their website you have to input your details, in which it states i was driving the vehicle.

    With it being an honest mistake and i wanted to be very honest about the situation have i dug my hole to deep that i cant get out of this parking ticket?

    In a nut shell i drove from Manchester to Chelmsford, due to delays it took me approximately 6 hours to get to the Travel Lodge hotel, when i drove into the car park it was dark, i was tired and i did'nt notice the parking meter was this high tech camera operated that takes pictures when you enter and leave. When i go to reception i asked staff if i could need to get a ticket with it being midnight, its off peak and i would'nt expect any parking wardens to be walking around. Staff said no, but to get one in the morning. Which is what i did as soon as i got up.

    I complained to Travel Lodge who apologised and said if i pay the parking charge they will refund me as staff should have told me to get a ticket. They said the parking is privately owned and they arn't very good when it comes to appeals. They were great.

    Should i just pay them and get the refund. Or stick to my guns and not pay?
    Reason i ask is Britannia Parking have my personal details i provided on their website when i appealed.

    The reply looked automated, had pictures of their signs on a nice sunny day (wasn't that sunny at midnight).

    Thanks
    Lee
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Jan 18, 12:42 PM
    • 9,455 Posts
    • 9,195 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 8th Jan 18, 12:42 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Jan 18, 12:42 PM
    Let Travel Lodge pay. They may then not be too happy wtih the PPC and persuade the land owner to ditch them. Once TL has paid write good things about them on TripAdviser.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 8th Jan 18, 12:45 PM
    • 17,980 Posts
    • 28,454 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 12:45 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 12:45 PM
    They key question for you is do you want a private parking company to be enriched, albeit via Travel Lodge, as a result of an !!!8216;error!!!8217; not directly of your making? Or would you prefer they got nothing, from you or TL?

    I know what forum regulars would do.

    While you have blown a few toes off with your admission of being the driver, you!!!8217;ve still got legs to stand on. You can appeal to POPLA and still have a good chance of beating Britannia - you!!!8217;ll have the charge cancelled and they will get nothing.

    If you lost at POPLA, there!!!8217;s still no obligation on you to pay the charge, but you would get irritating debt collector letters and exposure to a court claim for up to 6 years (at the moment Brit are not litigious - but who knows in 6 years time).

    You could appeal to POPLA, then if you lost, and to get it out of your hair, pay and get TL to cover it (but you do need that guarantee in writing from them).

    All about POPLA in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Jan 18, 12:51 PM
    • 9,455 Posts
    • 9,195 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 12:51 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 12:51 PM
    I know what forum regulars would do.


    What would they do?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 8th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    • 17,980 Posts
    • 28,454 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    I know what forum regulars would do.


    What would they do?
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Perhaps I should have qualified it with ‘almost all’.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • JonesLee
    • By JonesLee 8th Jan 18, 1:51 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    JonesLee
    • #6
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:51 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:51 PM
    Thank you, appreciate the help.

    I'll make an appeal to POPLA once I've read up on it (on MSE).
    Will post the outcome as soon as it comes through. Fingers crossed

    And thanks again.

    Lee
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jan 18, 3:31 PM
    • 7,658 Posts
    • 7,358 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 8th Jan 18, 3:31 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Jan 18, 3:31 PM
    Thank you, appreciate the help.

    I'll make an appeal to POPLA once I've read up on it (on MSE).
    Will post the outcome as soon as it comes through. Fingers crossed

    And thanks again.

    Lee
    Originally posted by JonesLee
    Feel free to post your draft PoPLA appeal here for appraisal before you send it if you wish.
    .
    • JonesLee
    • By JonesLee 7th Feb 18, 12:14 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    JonesLee
    • #8
    • 7th Feb 18, 12:14 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Feb 18, 12:14 PM
    Hi guys, thank you for your help previously, i have an update. Ill copy and paste but in short Britannia have won this appeal and are now asking for £100.

    Decision
    Unsuccessful
    Assessor Name
    Alexandra Roby
    Assessor summary of operator case
    The operator!!!8217;s case is that the appellant did not purchase a valid parking ticket.
    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant!!!8217;s case is that the site is poorly lit and that he parked in off peak hours. He states that the hotel staff suggested that he should purchase a parking ticket in the morning and upon doing so, the appellant advises that the machine gave him one hour free parking. The appellant states that it was not made clear to him that the site is Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) operated and that payment was required. The appellant has provided his correspondence with the operator and the hotel to support his appeal.
    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    The terms and conditions of the site state: !!!8220;£100 Parking Charge Notice may be issued to all vehicles which: fail to purchase a valid ticket, voucher or permit!!!8221;. The operator has issued the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) as the appellant did not purchase a valid parking ticket. Images from the operator!!!8217;s ANPR system have been provided, which show that the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle entered the car park at 23:29 and exited at 08:15 on the day in question, staying for a total of eight hours and 44 minutes. A system generated print out has also been provided, showing that the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle was only authorised to park at the site for 30 minutes. The appellant!!!8217;s case is that the site is poorly lit and that he parked in off peak hours. He states that the hotel staff suggested that he should purchase a parking ticket in the morning and upon doing so, the appellant advises that the machine gave him one hour free parking. The appellant states that it was not made clear to him that the site is ANPR operated and that payment was required. I refer to Appendix B of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, which states: !!!8220;Signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness or at dusk if and when parking enforcement activity takes place at those times. This can be achieved in a variety of ways such as by direct lighting or by using the lighting for the parking area. If the sign itself is not directly or indirectly lit, we suggest that it should be made of a retro-reflective material similar to that used on public roads and described in the Traffic Signs Manual. Dark-coloured areas do not need to be reflective.!!!8221; The operator has provided photographic evidence of the signage at the site along with a site map showing the distribution of the signs throughout the site. Upon review of this, it is evident that many of the signs at the site are in close proximity to sources of light and therefore, I am satisfied that it is compliant with the BPA Code of Practice. I am also satisfied that the appellant would have had reasonable opportunity to review the site!!!8217;s terms and conditions before deciding whether to park his vehicle. While I note that the appellant may have been mis-advised by the hotel staff and his evidence of the conversations, it is not their duty to advise of the parking restrictions. The contract formed when parking is between the motorist and the operator, any third party conversation would have no bearing on the validity of this contract. Furthermore, by the appellant!!!8217;s own admission he was aware that he needed to make a payment however he failed to make sufficient payment. By doing so, he has failed to comply with the site!!!8217;s terms and conditions. As such, I conclude that the PCN was issued correctly. Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Feb 18, 12:43 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,308 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #9
    • 7th Feb 18, 12:43 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Feb 18, 12:43 PM
    While I note that the appellant may have been mis-advised by the hotel staff and his evidence of the conversations, it is not their duty to advise of the parking restrictions.

    but they did advise , and advised incorrectly

    this should be mentioned in your complaint to travel lodge .

    due to false info given by staff you now have a bill of £100

    ask them to sort it , the PPC or both
    Save a Rachael

    buy a share in crapita
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 7th Feb 18, 12:58 PM
    • 9,455 Posts
    • 9,195 Thanks
    The Deep
    Also, please watch this

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    You have been scammed by the PPC, and PoPLA has colluded in that scam, therefore PoPLA is unfit for purpose, Complain robustly to your MP.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 7th Feb 18, 1:12 PM
    • 3,382 Posts
    • 4,496 Thanks
    waamo
    I would hold my nerve still. This shambles of an outfit send debt collectors letters but not much else.

    Odds of going to court are low. See here http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Britannia_Parking_Group.html
    This space for hire.
    • JonesLee
    • By JonesLee 8th Feb 18, 10:48 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    JonesLee
    Really appreciate the help, interesting read and more so that link to parliament was an interesting watch thank you.

    I'll stand my ground.

    Thanks again.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 8th Feb 18, 10:54 AM
    • 17,980 Posts
    • 28,454 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Have you complained to Travel Lodge? Send them a link to this thread so they can understand the consequences of their staff seemingly providing you with less than full information.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • JonesLee
    • By JonesLee 1st May 18, 12:47 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    JonesLee
    Afternoon, an update. Ive ignored all the letters from collection agency's. They have now used a different company it seems,i had one letter from Zenith asking for a reduced settlement figure of £100.

    And the one that worries me is the one from SCS Law. which states
    "Unless a response to this letter is recieved within 30 days, we are instructed to issue court proceedings to recover the above sum (£100) and any of our clients legal costs, without further recourse to you. Please see the attached Reply form for details on how to respond to this letter"

    "In the Event that a County Court Judgement is obtained against you and payment is not made, our client will consider all enforcement options, which shall result in further legal costs, including but not limited to

    Instructing County Court Baliffs/High Court Enforcement Officers to attend your address and remove goods to the value of the debt and costs owed.

    Applying for an attachment of earnings order, requiring your employer to deduct sums from your wage and pay them directly to our client.
    "

    Should i still ignore these? Again i will keep posted if anything changes

    thanks again

    Lee
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st May 18, 12:49 PM
    • 58,331 Posts
    • 71,857 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That's a LBC and you need to reply to it (not fill the forms in). Newbies thread covers this.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 1st May 18, 12:49 PM
    • 7,658 Posts
    • 7,358 Thanks
    KeithP
    Looks like a Letter Before Claim to me.

    Post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ thread offers complete guidance on how to robustly respond to that letter.
    .
    • JonesLee
    • By JonesLee 1st May 18, 2:15 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    JonesLee
    Thanks, i'll take a look.
    My concern is i was parked here, it was only through being instructed by Travel lodge i thought i wouldn't need a ticket as it were midnight. (figured they had peak hours).

    Ill use a template and send to them and see how it goes.

    Thanks again.

    Lee
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st May 18, 2:23 PM
    • 58,331 Posts
    • 71,857 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just don't use the old one that tells them they haven't complied with the 1st October PAP and haven't sent reply forms/allowed you 30 days. You know they have!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • JonesLee
    • By JonesLee 1st May 18, 2:33 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    JonesLee
    Sorry to be a pain, would this be sufficient? Wasnt sure to put travel lodge in or excuses. Just kept it as it is


    Dear Sirs,

    Thank you for your letter of Ref xxxxx Car Reg: Mxxxxx

    When your client's debt collectors first started contacting me, I asked them for details of the basis upon which money was being claimed, including all photographs taken of the vehicle at the relevant time. Extraordinarily, I had been given photo!!!8217;s during the day and some with a camera using flash by Britannia on the 8th January.


    You have now sent a Letter Before Claim. However, your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and, again, fails to provide the photographic evidence which I requested as long ago as January 2017, It does not even say what the cause of action is. Nor does it contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.


    This action on the part of your client is a clear breach of its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct, with which as solicitors you must surely be familiar (and with which your client, a serial litigator of small claims, must also be familiar). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction binds all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time.


    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction. Your client cannot simply refuse to provide the relevant information until this gets to court.

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
    5. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
    6. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
    7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    9. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.

    I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16. I will draw to the court the fact that I have expressly requested this information since as early as [date or month/year of first request] yet your client has refused to provide it, saying that it will not do so until this matter reaches the court.


    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

    Yours faithfully
    Lee Jones
    • JonesLee
    • By JonesLee 1st May 18, 2:36 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    JonesLee
    That copy and paste wasn't great.
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