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  • FIRST POST
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 7th Jan 18, 9:46 PM
    • 20Posts
    • 36Thanks
    shaleman
    ECP Country Park
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 9:46 PM
    ECP Country Park 7th Jan 18 at 9:46 PM
    Hi, I received a parking charge notice from ECP for a Country Park in Kent, followed by a Notice to Keeper.
    I have read the newbie instructions and appealed to ECP using the template. The appeal was rejected and I now wish to submit my appeal to POPLA.
    Can I rely upon the following argument that I have seen quoted on another thread
    No right to claim under POFA
    As Euro Car Parks already knows, the car park at Country Park is owned and provided by Kent County Council, a "traffic authority" as defined under Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 of POFA; this car park is therefore not "relevant land" under POFA. I am very concerned that ECP is claiming that it has the right under POFA to claim unpaid parking charges from the vehicle’s keeper, even though it should have been obvious to ECP that no such right exists.
Page 2
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 20th Feb 18, 10:12 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    My appeal was successful.

    Edna Basher you are a star, and thank you to all the other contributors to this thread.

    Extract from POPLA Assessor's rationale for decision
    "As the land appears to be council owned then I am not satisfied that the requirements of PoFA 2012 have been met. Therefore, the keeper cannot be held responsible. As such from the evidence provided, I conclude that the operator issued the PCN incorrectly."
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Feb 18, 11:13 AM
    • 17,613 Posts
    • 27,823 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    My appeal was successful.

    Edna Basher you are a star, and thank you to all the other contributors to this thread.

    Extract from POPLA Assessor's rationale for decision
    "As the land appears to be council owned then I am not satisfied that the requirements of PoFA 2012 have been met. Therefore, the keeper cannot be held responsible. As such from the evidence provided, I conclude that the operator issued the PCN incorrectly."
    Originally posted by shaleman
    You should write to the DVLA and complain that despite this being not relevant land, ECP have pursued you as the keeper under PoFA. Ask that the DVLA instigate an investigation, not only into your case, but into all tickets issued by ECP at this site.

    How much has ECP garnered here by putting forward misinformation, misleading people into paying.

    Great result at POPLA for you. Well done.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 20th Feb 18, 11:36 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    Yes, I will contact the DVLA about this.

    I suspect that ECP are pursuing Keepers for unpaid parking tickets at a number of car parks which are located in Country Parks owned by Kent County Council.

    Thank you
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 20th Feb 18, 1:47 PM
    • 7,214 Posts
    • 6,719 Thanks
    KeithP
    I suspect that ECP are pursuing Keepers for unpaid parking tickets at a number of car parks which are located in Country Parks owned by Kent County Council.
    Originally posted by shaleman
    It would also be interesting to know Kent County Council's view on this too.

    Please can anyone in Kent write to their Kent County Councillor?
    .
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 20th Feb 18, 10:38 PM
    • 667 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    Excellent - well done shaleman.

    Well done also to your POPLA assessor who seems to have had a pretty decent grasp of the intricacies of POFA.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 20th Feb 18, 10:55 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    Thank you Edna Basher.

    Am I permitted to disclose the name of the Assessor on this thread or should that remain confidential?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Feb 18, 12:53 AM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,075 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    It's OK I think, in a thread where the Assessor is not being criticised!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 21st Feb 18, 9:06 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    The POPLA Assessor was Linda McMillan.

    I have updated the POPLA decisions thread.

    I have also sent follow up emails to DVLA, Kent County Council, British Parking Association and ECP regarding ECP's conduct and the POPLA verdict. Wait and see now.
    Last edited by shaleman; 21-02-2018 at 1:38 PM.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 9th Mar 18, 5:01 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    I have received a reply from the DVLA responding to my email regarding ECP's conduct and the POPLA verdict

    Thank you for your e-mail regarding Euro Car Parks Ltd.

    Regulation 27 of Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 allows vehicle keeper details to be disclosed to third parties who can demonstrate that they have a reasonable cause to receive it. This Regulation provides a legal gateway for the release of information and is not based on the consent of the data subject.

    The release of information to private car parking companies is considered to be a reasonable cause. Landowners would have great difficulty in enforcing their rights if motorists were able to park with impunity on private property. This does not infringe the Data Protection Act and the Information Commissioner (ICO) is aware that personal data held on the vehicle register can be used in this way.

    To help ensure motorists are treated fairly when any private parking charge is pursued the DVLA discloses vehicle keeper information only to companies that are members of an appropriate Accredited Trade Association (ATA). The purpose of requiring a company to be a member of an ATA is to ensure that those who request DVLA information are legitimate companies that operate within a code of practice that promotes fair treatment of the motorist and ensures that there is a clear set of standards for operators.

    The company in question, Euro Car Parks , is a member of the British Parking Association (BPA) which is an Accredited Trade Association for the parking industry. The BPA's code of practice is published on its website at www.britishparking.co.uk under the heading Approved Operators Scheme; If a member of this scheme does not comply with the code of practice, it may be suspended or expelled, during which time no data will be provided to it by the DVLA. If you feel that any of the practices used by the company do not comply with the BPA's code of practice, you may wish to contact the BPA at Stuart House, 41- 43 Perrymount Road, Haywards Heath, RH16 3BN.

    I have investigated your complaint with Euro Car Parks Ltd who have confirmed that ECP operate under Kent County Parks and this is not Council land and the parks belong to Kent County not the council, it is therefore relevant land.

    While seeking to ensure that vehicle keeper data is released only in appropriate circumstances, it is not a matter for the Agency to decide on the merits of individual cases. Disputes over the circumstances leading to an incident are matters for the parties concerned.

    I trust this explains the Agency's position, if you remain unhappy with the service you have received, you can write to our Complaints Team and I have provided a link to our complaints procedure leaflet for your reference.

    Sent by:
    Data Sharing Strategy and Compliance, Data Customer Compliance Manager ,Policy Directorate, C2 East, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1DY.

    No responses yet from Kent County Council, BPA or ECP.
    Last edited by shaleman; 09-03-2018 at 5:04 PM.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 9th Mar 18, 5:14 PM
    • 1,712 Posts
    • 2,305 Thanks
    Castle
    I have investigated your complaint with Euro Car Parks Ltd who have confirmed that ECP operate under Kent County Parks and this is not Council land and the parks belong to Kent County not the council, it is therefore relevant land.
    Originally posted by shaleman
    So basically the DVLA have just taken the word of ECP, without actually checking it themselves.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 9th Mar 18, 5:17 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    It would appear so, I have replied and asked them whether they have checked with Kent County Council.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 9th Mar 18, 5:40 PM
    • 1,712 Posts
    • 2,305 Thanks
    Castle
    According to Kent County Council, they own Lullingstone Country Park and the visitor centre; (see refs 78170100 & 78170200 on the excel spreadsheet);-
    https://www.kent.gov.uk/business/property/property-owned-by-kent-county-council
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 9th Mar 18, 7:08 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    Thanks for your replies, I will keep on the case.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Mar 18, 7:09 PM
    • 17,613 Posts
    • 27,823 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Thanks for your replies, I will keep on the case.
    Originally posted by shaleman
    Nothing to lose, lots to gain.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 9th Mar 18, 7:19 PM
    • 667 Posts
    • 1,740 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    Euro Car Parks have been very economical with the truth in their reply to the DVLA.

    The contract for the management of the car parks at Kent County Council's eight Country Parks (including Lullingstone) had a start date of 22nd April 2013 with the Client named as:

    Kent Country Parks
    Kent County Council
    Invicta House
    County Hall
    Maidstone
    Kent
    ME14 1XX

    The contract was signed on 22nd April 2013 by a person with the initials AD (full name not given here to keep the MSE Forum Police happy) "on behalf of Kent County Council".

    Our copy of the contract came from an ECP evidence pack relating to Brockhill Country Park (another one of KCC's Country Parks). This included the statement "Brockhill Country Park is owned and managed by Kent County Council and is one of 8 country parks in the KCC portfolio....."

    Either the DVLA couldn't care less about safeguarding keepers' data or they have been extremely gullible in believing ECP.
    Last edited by Edna Basher; 09-03-2018 at 7:26 PM.
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 9th Mar 18, 8:15 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    The contract which they submitted in their evidence pack names Kent Country Parks as the Client and was signed off by AD in June 2015 (The contract was for Brockhill Country Park, not Lullingstone). It does not include any reference to Kent County Council. However, the signage in the car park clearly does.

    I agree with your conclusions about ECP, and I am not satisfied that the DVLA are properly safeguarding my keepers' data.

    Thank you again for your comments
    • shaleman
    • By shaleman 11th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    shaleman
    I emailed Kent County Council as follows:-

    Dear Sir/Madam

    Euro Car Parks are incorrectly issuing parking charge notices on Council owned car parks (Country Parks). Council owned car parks are not Relevant Land and therefore Euro Car Parks have no right to obtain details of Vehicle Registered Keepers from DVLA under Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("POFA")

    As Kent County Council must be aware of the requirements of POFA 2012, they are effectively condoning the unlawful practices of Euro Car Parks which are being used in Council owned Car Parks.

    I would be grateful for your comments

    The reply from Kent County Council

    "Many thanks for your enquiry, I can confirm that whilst Kent County Council owns the land in the Kent Country the site is not covered by any off street parking orders as would be required for a council to enforce under the road traffic act and therefore does not fall under relevant land".

    Kent Country Parks Operations Manager
    www.kent.gov.uk/kentcountryparks

    There is no comment on the actions of ECP by Kent County Council.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Mar 18, 7:58 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,075 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    ''...and therefore does not fall under relevant land".
    No laughing at the back!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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