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  • FIRST POST
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 7th Jan 18, 7:59 PM
    • 48Posts
    • 6Thanks
    fisherp123
    Metro Inn, Walsall
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 7:59 PM
    Metro Inn, Walsall 7th Jan 18 at 7:59 PM
    Hi Everyone. I hope you can help me. This story is a little long-winded. I'll try to be clear as I can.

    On 08/11/2017 I received a letter from ZZPS about an alleged parking offence (PCN), which took place on 25/07/2017. ZZPS is obviously the debt collection company. I have not received any other correspondence before this letter, no NTK.

    I responded to them by email, as the vehicle in question was registered at the wrong address.

    Your Client: Civil Enforcement Ltd
    PCN: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Vehicle: xxxxxxxxxxx
    Location: Metro Inn, Birmingham Road, Walsall, WS5 3AB
    Issue Date: 27/07/2017
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I refer to your Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) Ref. xxxxxxxxxxxxx

    I confirm that at the time of this alleged incident, I was the vehicle’s keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA 2012”).

    I Must also inform you that you must write to me at a different address; I no longer live at xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Further correspondence should be sent to:-
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Further:
    I received no Notice to Keeper at all and have no information about the issue.
    I require ZZPS to supply all photos and copies of all correspondence to me at xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Shortly after this email, I received a letter stating that their computer records have now been updated and further correspondence will be sent to the correct address. They said that their client has the photos and I would not be getting any copies unless of litigation .

    This matter has now been passed along to QDR solicitors (Quantum Debt Recovery??) who has raised the outstanding balance and is threatening a CCJ.

    I am wondering how to respond to this matter. Can anyone advise me? I have read the MSE newbies thread, but template letters advise what to do before a solicitor gets involved. I wondered about using this template:

    Dear {name of IPC member - only IPC members for this version!!!}

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are they the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.

    Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs, which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the IPC Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, as seems likely based on my research) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me. I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle.

    I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
Page 3
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Aug 18, 12:57 PM
    • 9,930 Posts
    • 10,232 Thanks
    KeithP
    http://i65.tinypic.com/1zwovg7.jpg

    To me, that is a 'forbidding sign'.

    It offers nothing. Therefore it cannot form the basis of a contract.

    Also the £100 charge is far from prominent.
    .
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 9th Aug 18, 3:15 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Thank you. I'll put something together with these points and post here as soon as I can. Many thanks indeed!
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 10th Aug 18, 6:37 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Hello, would someone kindly look at this 'distilled defence' as requested by Walsall HM Courts. It needs to be submitted by 4pm 14/08/2018
    Thank you in advance.


    IN THE COUNTY COURT AT WALSALL
    Claim No.: xxxxx
    Between
    CIVIL ENFORCEMENT LIMITED (Claimant)
    -and-
    xxxxx (Defendant)
    xx August 2018
    __________

    DEFENCE
    __________

    As previously stated to Civil Enforcement Limited (xx/xx/2017), I confirm that at the time of this alleged incident, I was the vehicle!!!8217;s registered keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (!!!8220;POFA 2012!!!8221.
    * In no way is the Defendant declaring himself as the driver of the vehicle. *

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.
    2. The Defendant received no !!!8216;Notice to Keeper!!!8217; letter. The Claimant then raised their £100 parking charge to £200. It is submitted that this is merely a tactic to extract 'double money', and the Defendant is in any case not liable.
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41



    Please view the signage, used at the location:

    [sign inserted here - see post #40]


    I wish to make the following points:
    - It is a forbidding sign.
    There is no offer to park. Therefore it cannot form the basis of a contract. The offer of parking is only made to permit holders and only permit holders could therefore be bound by any contract.

    - This is clear from several cases. In PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], residents were parking on access roads. The signage forbade parking and so no contract was in place. A trespass had occurred, but that meant only the landowner could claim, not the parking company.

    - In UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016] it was also found the signage was forbidding and so the matter was one of trespass. The parking company did not have standing to claim.

    - In Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] it was also found the signage was forbidding and so the matter was one of trespass. The parking company did not have standing to claim.

    Lack of Prominence.
    If the driver did not see the sign then the sign is not prominent. The charge of £100 is far from prominent.

    o The BPA code of Practice Section 18 states that signs must be placed at the entrance to the car park and throughout the car park in a strictly prescribed format. This covers things such as the size of the sign, the size of the text and the text content itself.

    o The way it is written suggests the rules are non-negotiable, such as; "you must also have a standard form of entrance sign" and "signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm".

    o The Defendant contests the validity of these signs. Not prominent and missed.




    Other Notes:

    1. The Claimant may rely on the case of ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 as a binding precedent on the lower court. However, that only assists the Claimant if the facts of the case are the same, or broadly the same. In Beavis, it was common ground between the parties that the terms of a contract had been breached, whereas it is the Defendant!!!8217;s position that no such breach occurred in this case, because there was no valid contract, and also because the legitimate interest in enforcing parking rules for retailers and shoppers in Beavis does not apply to these circumstances. Therefore, this case can be distinguished from Beavis on the facts and circumstances.

    2. The Claimant, or their legal representatives, has added an additional sums to the original £100 parking charge, for which no explanation or justification has been provided. Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act, at 4(5), states that the maximum sum which can be recovered is that specified in the Notice to Keeper, which is £100 in this instance. It is submitted that this is an attempt at double recovery by the Claimant, which the Court should not uphold, even in the event that Judgment for Claimant is awarded.

    3. For all or any of the reasons stated above, the Court is invited to dismiss the Claim in its entirety, and to award the Defendant such costs as are allowable on the small claims track, pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 27.14.

    Statement of Truth

    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

    ;...
    (Defendant)

    .
    (Date)
    Last edited by fisherp123; 11-08-2018 at 9:05 AM.
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 13th Aug 18, 9:49 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Last day today
    Hello, I know many of you are enjoying the school holidays with your family. I just wanted to let you know that I will be submitting the letter above later today or tomorrow (4pm latest).
    I will let you know if it was enough to overt the large fine they are trying to impose.
    Thanks for your help in this regard.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Aug 18, 10:34 AM
    • 10,247 Posts
    • 10,139 Thanks
    The Deep
    It is not a fine, it is an invoice with which you do not agree.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 13th Aug 18, 10:46 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    A fine
    Is that all I will need to state to the judge?
    Surely it cannot be this simple?
    I have to get this 'distilled defence' sent to the court before 4pm tomorrow.
    I have already stated that there is no admission as to who was driving and that CEL should not pursue a claim against the Owner of the vehicle.

    The sign is a forbidding sign. No offer to non residents of the hotel. The sign was also missed by the driver ie not prominent.
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 14th Sep 18, 4:37 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Just a word to let you all know that I finally received a letter from the court regarding my 'distilled defence.'

    The Decision went in my favour; the judgement was set aside.
    The CCJ has been removed from my credit file today, and I must now file more paperwork to recover the court costs of £250. I am so relieved this is all over.

    Because this caused a lot of stress to me, am I able to pursue a claim for compensation? If so, what should I ask for and how should go about getting it?

    I want to thank each and everyone of you for your continued support. The parking charge notices are a complete scam in most cases and it's actually legalised robbery. I am going to make a huge effort to pass on my basic knowledge and help others avoid financial traps set by these criminals.

    Thanks and best wishes everyone.
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 13th Oct 18, 4:41 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    My case has been referred to the small claims court now. I wish to have my court fees refunded. Additionally, I'd also like to claim for time I spent researching my defence and time I used to turn up to court (this will be my second visit to court.)
    Particulars:
    The Claimant has until 16:00 on 30th October to pay to the court the trial fee of £25.00. If the court does not receive this fee, then the claim will be struck out with effect from 30th October 2018 without further order, and unless the court orders otherwise, the claimant will also be liable for the costs which I incurred.

    * It says I must file my witness statements and documents well before the allocated hearing date. Failure to do adhere to this may result in the case being adjourned with a costs penalty or the claim/counterclaim being dismissed.

    What must I send to them?? I have a breakdown of my estimated costs incurred. Do I file that?
    am not really clear what I must do and what to expect at this hearing.
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 17th Oct 18, 2:20 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Can anybody tell me what to expect as my court date is drawing closer. Thank you.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 17th Oct 18, 3:47 PM
    • 9,930 Posts
    • 10,232 Thanks
    KeithP
    Have you filed your Witness Statement and Evidence - as you mentioned on 13th Oct?

    Re-read that part of post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread following:
    Once allocated to your local court, you will be given a clear date by which YOU MUST file the evidence ('exhibits') and any Witness Statement...
    There are many examples of Witness Statements and of typical evidence there.

    What is the date of your hearing?


    am not really clear what I must do
    Have another read of Bargepole's 'what happens when' post linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.

    The NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread really should be your first 'go to' resourse at this time.

    Do not miss any deadlines, or you stand to lose not only the case but your £255 set-aside fee too.
    .
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 19th Oct 18, 1:10 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Hi KeithP, thank you for your assistance I am still a little bit confused. Here's why:

    1. on August 2nd I received a letter from the county court ORDERING THAT the judgement against me be set aside. Great News! (see link) https://ibb.co/hMoFkf

    2 I am then asked to fill in a questionnaire, asking if I want to pursue a small claims track. Yes I do, since I'd like my £250 court hearing costs to be reimbursed.

    3. On 1st October I receive another letter (see link https://ibb.co/gsg1Qf ) which states that the claim is allocated to the small claims track. This is where I am now a bit confused. I have read the newbies link post #2. I am not sure what documentation I need to produce and a) deliver to other party, and b) to the court itself. I am only interested in getting my court fees reimbused, plus some money for time wasted when I could of been working, plus anxiety. From the letter I received, it looks like I have to take all my existing documentation back to the court (who have already set aside this case). What am I missing here? thank you so much.
    Last edited by fisherp123; 19-10-2018 at 1:29 PM. Reason: adding links
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 20th Oct 18, 11:51 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Can anybody guide me please? I believe have won my case. I am on small claims track now for my reimbursement. What documents do I need to submit?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 20th Oct 18, 12:02 PM
    • 9,930 Posts
    • 10,232 Thanks
    KeithP
    My interpretation of your situation is that now the set aside has succeeded the Claimant has the option to continue with the original case.
    That hearing of the original claim will go ahead if the Claimant pays the hearing fee.

    All the set aside did was undo the wrongly issued Judgment.

    On 17th October I suggested that you need to file a Witness Statement and Evidence.
    Have you done anything about that?

    Re-read my 17th October post.
    Last edited by KeithP; 20-10-2018 at 12:05 PM.
    .
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 20th Oct 18, 1:21 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    I haven't done this yet. I'll do it today...
    I can email it to Claimant and get a printed copy (again) to the court.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 20th Oct 18, 1:33 PM
    • 9,930 Posts
    • 10,232 Thanks
    KeithP
    I haven't done this yet. I'll do it today...
    I can email it to Claimant and get a printed copy (again) to the court.
    Originally posted by fisherp123
    Not "a printed copy (again) to the court", surely.

    You need to send a Witness Statement and evidence which supports your Defence to the Claim.

    Wasn't the Witness Statement you sent at the time of the Set Aside, justifying your assertion that a Set Aside was appropriate?

    It's usually suggested here that the WS and Evidence be filed neatly in a clearly indexed file or folder and be hand delivered to the court - as the hearing is due to take place at your local court.
    Last edited by KeithP; 20-10-2018 at 1:35 PM.
    .
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 20th Oct 18, 1:41 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    yes that's right. I outlined all the reasons why the claimant was wrong to pursue a claim against me. Pictures. see below. And this was enough for the judge to setaside the case. So I don't know what else I am supposed to send to anybody to get my court fees reimbursed?? See what I mean??

    IN THE COUNTY COURT AT WALSALL
    Claim No.: xxxxx
    Between
    CIVIL ENFORCEMENT LIMITED (Claimant)
    -and-
    xxxxx (Defendant)
    07 August 2018
    __________

    DEFENCE
    __________
    The Parking Charge from Civil Enforcement Limited is an invoice with which I do not agree.
    As previously stated to Civil Enforcement Limited (15/11/2017), I confirm that at the time of this alleged incident, I was the vehicle’s registered keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA 2012”).
    * In no way is the Defendant declaring himself as the driver of the vehicle. *

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.
    2. The Defendant received no ‘Notice to Keeper’ letter. The Claimant then raised their £100 parking charge to £200. It is submitted that this is merely a tactic to extract “double money”, and the Defendant is in any case not liable.
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    Please view the signage, used at the location:

    https://ibb.co/iBNmRL

    I wish to make the following points:
    • It is a forbidding sign.
    There is no offer to park. Therefore it cannot form the basis of a contract. The offer of parking is only made to permit holders and only permit holders could therefore be bound by any contract.

    • This is clear from several cases. In PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], residents were parking on access roads. The signage forbade parking and so no contract was in place. A trespass had occurred, but that meant only the landowner could claim, not the parking company.

    • In UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016] it was also found the signage was forbidding and so the matter was one of trespass. The parking company did not have standing to claim.

    • In Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] it was also found the signage was forbidding and so the matter was one of trespass. The parking company did not have standing to claim.

    • Lack of Prominence.
    If the driver did not see the sign then the sign is not prominent. The charge of £100 is far from prominent.

    o The BPA code of Practice Section 18 states that signs must be placed at the entrance to the car park and throughout the car park in a strictly prescribed format. This covers things such as the size of the sign, the size of the text and the text content itself.

    o The way it is written suggests the rules are non-negotiable, such as; "you must also have a standard form of entrance sign" and "signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm".

    o The Defendant contests the validity of these signs. Not prominent and missed.




    Other Notes:

    1. The Claimant may rely on the case of ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 as a binding precedent on the lower court. However, that only assists the Claimant if the facts of the case are the same, or broadly the same. In Beavis, it was common ground between the parties that the terms of a contract had been breached, whereas it is the Defendant’s position that no such breach occurred in this case, because there was no valid contract, and also because the legitimate interest in enforcing parking rules for retailers and shoppers in Beavis does not apply to these circumstances. Therefore, this case can be distinguished from Beavis on the facts and circumstances.

    10. The Claimant, or their legal representatives, has added an additional sums to the original £100 parking charge, for which no explanation or justification has been provided. Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act, at 4(5), states that the maximum sum which can be recovered is that specified in the Notice to Keeper, which is £100 in this instance. It is submitted that this is an attempt at double recovery by the Claimant, which the Court should not uphold, even in the event that Judgement for Claimant is awarded.

    11. For all or any of the reasons stated above, the Court is invited to dismiss the Claim in its entirety, and to award the Defendant such costs as are allowable on the small claims track, pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 27.14.

    Statement of Truth

    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

    ;...
    (Defendant)
    xxxxxx

    .
    (Date)
    14.8.2018
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 20th Oct 18, 1:51 PM
    • 9,930 Posts
    • 10,232 Thanks
    KeithP
    So I don't know what else I am supposed to send to anybody to get my court fees reimbursed??
    Originally posted by fisherp123
    I think you are looking at this in the wrong way.

    You should not be thinking about how to get your court fees refunded, but instead thinking about how you can win the claim that the Claimant has put forward.

    If you lose the case put forward by the Claimant then you will not get your £255 refunded.

    As well as producing a Witness Statement and evidence to do that, you also need to produce a Cost Schedule which will include the cost of that Set Aside.

    You won't be surprised to hear that there is guidance in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread on how to produce a Costs Schedule.
    .
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 20th Oct 18, 2:00 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Thank you Keith. I didn't realise this. So, I am basically waiting to hear if the claimant puts forward a counter argument(s) (and £25 court fee) by 16:00 on 30th October to know if the case has been struck off or not?
    In the meantime, should re-submit my original witness statement (as in post #56) along with the cost schedule (which I will look in to, thanks) in case they want to go to court on 27th November? Should I send copies of both to claimant and court asap?
    Thank you. I am sorry to be a pain. I am very confused by all this.
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 20th Oct 18, 3:44 PM
    • 3,293 Posts
    • 2,235 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    You have topped and tailed it with the word DEFENCE yet you keep calling it a Witness Statement. Which is it?
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 20th Oct 18, 5:47 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    I believe it was my distilled defence. Is it really my witness statement? Do I just call it WS?
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