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  • FIRST POST
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • 112Posts
    • 102Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work 7th Jan 18 at 11:31 AM
    Hi there,

    My wife is having some issues at a well-known shopping store chain in the UK.

    For the last 10 weeks, she has been suspended on full pay, no one else has been suspended and it has taken the company 10 weeks to respond.

    A statement from another member of staff (below) has been posted to the house, and a disciplinary hearing date next week. On the letter, it says she is allowed to take a union representative or a CompanyX employee. However, further down the page, it says this case cannot be discussed with any other other CompanyX employees??? She is not part of the union so who can help represent her case?

    I find the whole situation very suspicious, almost like a setup and my wife is taking the blame.

    The statement received has been split into sections below with the proposed responses from my wife.

    FYI names have been changed to protect the guilty

    Thank you and sorry it is a long post

    MrNiceGuy_007


    [Stamement]
    Remit
    To establish whether there are any reasonable grounds to believe that Mini Mouse may have stolen £123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here]
    which may constitute Gross Misconduct and therefore if there is a disciplinary case to answer by Mini Mouse or not.

    Process
    Investigation held with Mini Mouse (frontline colleague) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Donald Duck (Duty Manager) on [date here]
    Documents reviewed: Weekly cash discrepancy report

    General Observations
    Mini Mouse - Frontline Colleague - Suspended

    Findings
    Allegation: That Mini Mouse has stolen £123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here], as she was the only cashier on the till that day between 2pm-7pm.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Incorrect I started work at 15:00 and finished at 18:00. I was not the only person signed on the till that day, Donald took over the till after I finished my shift to serve the last of the customers until about 19:00. Also, the store opens at 08:00 and two other staff members had full access to the till 8 hours before I was even on the premises.
    [Response END]

    As there has been cash loss issues within the store we have put processes in place to monitor cash loss effectively.
    These processes were put into place as there has been cash loss issues within the store and myself (Daisy Duck) store manager wanted to minimise the areas in which the cash loss was occuring. This included making sure that there was only one cashier per till each day to minimise the amount of people using a specific till in one day but also so any cash errors could be quickly resolved.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As explained above I was not the only person on the till that day and therefore someone else must have stolen the cash or made a mistake counting the cash before or after. May I also point out that the money is transferred from the till to the cash office by two different people, therefore I have no control of how the cash is handled before cash is placed and after it is removed from the till.
    [Response END]

    After looking into this report and looking at the cash office balances at the end of the night this being [day] [date] it clearly shows that £123.45 was missing from till 1 once it had been cashed up.


    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Clearly, the cash accounting skills of the appointed staff members are insufficient, even the amount above does not match up with the amount stated in the following paragraph below. If the money has been stolen, who would steal £123.45? why not just £100? This whole allegation is very suspicious and I feel CompanyX should be focusing their investigation efforts elsewhere.
    [Response END]

    No CCTV covering this specific till or the cash office

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    I am very surprised to hear this, as Daisy Duck informed me that the cameras were repositioned over the tills after I reported Ursula serving herself and placing money in her pocket. It cannot be fairly stated or even proven the cash was stolen by myself or another member of staff without CCTV.
    [Response END]

    Reviewed all reports available and there are no unusual transactions.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Please define an unusual transaction.
    [Response END]

    After interviewing Mini Mouse, the cashier on that till on the [date here] at 15.43pm, she was unable to give a reason as to why the till would be down by £123.88. She explained that she always gives the correct change and that she cant explain were the money has gone. When asked has Mini stolen the money she replied 'no I would never steal from the company, lye never stolen in my life.' Mini was unable to remember that there were any unusual transactions that day and therefore there is no explanation as to were the money has gone and therefore we have concluded that the money has been stolen.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    I am unable to explain how or where the cash has gone and it would be highly unlikely I have given the incorrect change for such a large cash reconciliation error.
    I know with full certainty the cash was not stolen by myself and therefore I can only assume either a counting error or theft has been made by another member of staff.
    [Response END]

    After interviewing Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) and member of management who checked and issued the tills that day. He explained that the tills were checked by himself that morning before they were issued to ensure that the correct amount of £250 was in each till to prevent cash loss. He couldn't explain as to why the till would be down at the end of the night. When asked who else had been on the till that day he replied Mini. Donald was the duty manager that day in charge of cashing up the tills and finalising the safe count.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As previously stated this could be an innocent cash accounting mistake by a trainee member of staff.
    Other than Donald!!!8217;s word, please provide further evidence that precisely £250 was present before my shift. Please note, I have not been informed to count the cash before my shift; therefore I am placing my trust in other people, which has been a mistake.
    [Response END]

    After interviewing Donald Duck (Duty manager) in charge that evening of cashing up. He explained that there were no issues that day with the cash office, he explained that he started cashing up the tills like normal however till 1 was missing £120 odd pounds so he checked the till 3 times and it wasn't there. So he accepted the loss hoping that it would be in another till or the cash office.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Please explain under what circumstances would any cash be distributed across different tills, because I find the above statement highly unlikely and does not come under any training provided to date.
    [Response END]

    When he cashed everything up he realised it wasn't in the tills, he then went onto counting the safe twice and it wasn't there so he rang Daffy Duck to ask what to do. He wanted to make Daffy aware of the issues so he didn't come in the next day totally unaware of the cash loss. Donald then confirmed what he should do which is what Daffy had already done and Donald said he would investigate it the following day. He confirms that Donald issued the tills that day and that the tills are checked every morning to ensure that the floats are correct.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As stated above, please provide further evidence that a full amount of £250 was present in the till before I started my shift.
    [Response END]

    Summary
    Till was was Issued however later that day when it was cashed up the till was minus £123.45. the only colleague that had used the till that day was Mini Mouse. Daffy Duck being the trainee supervisor issuing the tills and Donald Duck being the duty manager that day cashing up the tills.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As mentioned in the summary above I can only agree that I was the only person on that till from 15:00 until 18:00 that day, however, I was not the only person to have access to the till on that day. Daffy signed in to issue the till float, I (Mini) served customers and Donald did serve customers until about 19:00 and remove the cash from the till after my shift ended.
    [Response END]

    I believe that the money was stolen by Mini Mouse as she was the only cashier on the till on that day when the cash loss occured and as we have put in measures to monitor cash Ioss effectively this made it easier for the store to monitor as there is only 1 operator per till per day.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    On [day] [date here] when interviewed by Daisy Duck she showed me the till sheet, which did show myself, Daffy Duck and Donald Duck!!!8217;s staff number signed on that day. Where Daisy states one operator per till per day, I recall seeing within the same week four plus staff numbers signed on another till. Therefore the validity of Daisy Duck's statement must be untrue, and apparently, the new measure has not been strictly followed and opens a question of what other procedures are not strictly followed in regards to the tills.
    [Response END]
    Last edited by MrNiceGuy_007; 31-01-2018 at 4:57 PM.
Page 1
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 7th Jan 18, 11:36 AM
    • 5,818 Posts
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    Takeaway_Addict
    • #2
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:36 AM
    • #2
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:36 AM
    no one is reading all of that....
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 11:46 AM
    • 112 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    • #3
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:46 AM
    • #3
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:46 AM
    not even up to the statement?
    • NYM
    • By NYM 7th Jan 18, 11:49 AM
    • 3,589 Posts
    • 6,618 Thanks
    NYM
    • #4
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:49 AM
    • #4
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:49 AM
    It is difficult to read but I managed it

    ...unfortunately, I can't offer any advice.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 7th Jan 18, 11:58 AM
    • 19,163 Posts
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    jobbingmusician
    • #5
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:58 AM
    • #5
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:58 AM
    So the main argument in defence was that that float was short?

    I think this is an extremely weak argument as surely anyone would notice if the float was under half what it should be. Doesn't your wife have any responsibility for checking the float at the start of the shift? Surely a better place to focus is on any handover between staff, or anyone else operating the till?
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    • trailingspouse
    • By trailingspouse 7th Jan 18, 11:59 AM
    • 2,680 Posts
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    trailingspouse
    • #6
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:59 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:59 AM
    Well - I've read all of it.

    It's horrible to be accused of stealing when you know you haven't. And their anti-theft measures certainly seem a bit hit-and-miss.

    While I understand the total frustration that Mini Mouse must be feeling, can I suggest that you tone down the language in this paragraph -

    Clearly, the cash accounting skills of the appointed staff members are insufficient, even the amount above does not match up with the amount stated in the following paragraph below. If the money has been stolen, who would steal £123.45? why not just £100? This whole allegation is very suspicious and I feel CompanyX should be focusing their investigation efforts elsewhere.

    There are also parts where Mini Mouse suggests that there must have been mistakes by other staff members - this may indeed be true, but it isn't for her to say. Stick to the actual facts - she was on the till from 15:00 to 18:00, other people were on the till at other times that day. Keep saying it.
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 7th Jan 18, 12:01 PM
    • 1,197 Posts
    • 2,496 Thanks
    nicechap
    • #7
    • 7th Jan 18, 12:01 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Jan 18, 12:01 PM
    If your wife is not a union member she can still bring a union representative if she can find one to represent her. They do not need to be from a union within the store.

    Your wife needs to be aware she could be dismissed for the till shortage - the employer only needs a reasonable belief that the money has been taken, they do not need to prove it beyond reasonable doubt and they do not need to prove it to your wife.

    There would appear to be some inconsistencies in the accusations but unless your wife can prove so and so was also logged on and actively serving from the till I doubt they will amount to much. The employer could also take the point of view of dismissing everyone associated with the till to protect their money.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 12:03 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    • #8
    • 7th Jan 18, 12:03 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Jan 18, 12:03 PM
    Thank you, that is great advice. I will edit all emotional responses and stick to the facts.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Jan 18, 12:06 PM
    • 4,645 Posts
    • 7,855 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #9
    • 7th Jan 18, 12:06 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Jan 18, 12:06 PM
    I skimmed it. Pretty hard to read a block of text like this.

    How long has she worked there? If under two years, then all is moot as she has no right to claim unfair dismissal.

    "It must have been somebody else" isn't a defence. And an even worse defence is having a go at other people.

    To take a colleague she will need to contact the employer and tell them who she wants to take, sou that she can discuss it with them. But she doesn't have a right to force anyone to go with her - if they won't go, then that is tough luck I'm afraid.

    You do not send a response back. The statement and any evidence is provided to allow you to construct a defence. You present your defence at the hearing, when you should also be able to put the points and question the statement author.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 7th Jan 18, 12:07 PM
    • 2,777 Posts
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    Red-Squirrel
    Why is she sending a response to the statement? Has she been asked to?
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 7th Jan 18, 12:15 PM
    • 6,651 Posts
    • 5,185 Thanks
    ohreally
    This is the case against her, she responds at the hearing.

    She needs to prepare well and not simply turn up to be done up like a kipper.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 12:17 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    So the main argument in defence was that that float was short?
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    I agree, if the initial float was short by £100 someone would have noticed. However what if the float was a little short to begin with. Then some incorrect change was given throughout the day and finally, when the till was cashed up could a theft or error have been made? Far too many assumptions to be made.

    I think this is an extremely weak argument as surely anyone would notice if the float was under half what it should be. Doesn't your wife have any responsibility for checking the float at the start of the shift? Surely a better place to focus is on any handover between staff, or anyone else operating the till?
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    Nope, my wife is not allowed to remove all the cash from the till and count at the front of the store.

    Daffy opens the store an hour early and loads the till floats, then cashiers work on the till and later Donald takes the float to the cashing up office once the store is closed and everyone has gone home.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 12:20 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    Why is she sending a response to the statement? Has she been asked to?
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    No - I just quickly wrote down some comments and thought sending it back would be a good idea.. but obviously I was wrong.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 12:22 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    How long has she worked there? If under two years, then all is moot as she has no right to claim unfair dismissal.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Under two years and thanks for pointing this out.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Jan 18, 12:32 PM
    • 4,645 Posts
    • 7,855 Thanks
    sangie595
    Under two years and thanks for pointing this out.
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    In that case I suspect her defence is irrelevant - I doubt it matters to them whether she did it or not. Sack someone for theft, and you have almost certainly solved your theft problem, and even if it isn't theft you have concentrated everyone's minds on being very certain where money is.

    I'd stop trying to suggest where the money actually went. It's irrelevant. Focus purely on factual inaccuracies and the statement that she did not steal the money. Casting doubt or blame on otters is the classic defence of a thief. She actually makes herself look more guilty.
    • Lorian
    • By Lorian 7th Jan 18, 12:51 PM
    • 4,358 Posts
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    Lorian
    May be the copy till roll would give some clues.

    £123.45 does seem like a strange amount for a discrepancy. I'd be wanting to look at their cashing up calculations. I'd have wanted to look as soon as the issue arose though, not months later. Doesn't mean they will share of course.
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 7th Jan 18, 12:53 PM
    • 6,651 Posts
    • 5,185 Thanks
    ohreally
    £123.45 does seem like a strange amount for a discrepancy.
    Originally posted by Lorian
    I think that figure was illustrative.
    • Lorian
    • By Lorian 7th Jan 18, 12:58 PM
    • 4,358 Posts
    • 2,478 Thanks
    Lorian
    I think that figure was illustrative.
    Originally posted by ohreally
    doh! Next you will tell me her name isn't Mini!

    I think it makes a difference if its a round number or not.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 1:01 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    I think that figure was illustrative.
    Originally posted by ohreally
    The amount was illustrative, but the real figure does contain pence and within a handful of loose change.
    • flowrypot
    • By flowrypot 7th Jan 18, 1:35 PM
    • 133 Posts
    • 325 Thanks
    flowrypot
    This sound like the Co op , I know a young girl who had a similar problem a few years back . Fortunately for her her Dad was a union official in another union so she had some moral support . Could someone have signed into the till using your ID earlier in the day ? Do you not change ID for everyone who uses the till ?. Anyone signed into that till should be equally responsible.
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