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  • FIRST POST
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 6th Jan 18, 9:24 AM
    • 76Posts
    • 35Thanks
    Supersonos
    If a company delivers, are they obliged to collect?
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:24 AM
    If a company delivers, are they obliged to collect? 6th Jan 18 at 9:24 AM
    Let's say I order something online that needs specialised delivery - a couple of tonnes of gravel for example.

    The company offers free delivery and turns up with their lorry and its special hydraulic arm to lower the ton bags of gravel onto my driveway.

    Then, for whatever reason, I want to return it (maybe it's the wrong type of gravel or I've ordered too much or something) and the company agrees I can do so to get a refund. Clearly I can't just pop a couple of tonnes of gravel in the post and I don't have the necessary lorry to return it to them.

    Does the trader have some sort of legal obligation to collect the gravel? Or is it up to me to obtain an HGV licence and hire a lorry? Or find some third party with the necessary expertise and tools to return the gravel?
    Last edited by Supersonos; 06-01-2018 at 9:27 AM.
Page 4
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 7th Jan 18, 10:23 PM
    • 1,561 Posts
    • 1,003 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    What says reasonable costs?

    Read what both shaun & I quoted. It says the information needs to be provided before the consumer is bound by the contract (ie before it is formed/entered into).

    Also to note that the retailer must provide confirmation in a durable medium (in addition to providing the information before the consumer is bound) no later than when the goods are delivered. Websites are not durable.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Ultimately whatever a judge would decide reasonable, but you agree the legislation doesnít say.

    Because the goods can't be returned by normal post, they were under an obligation to tell you how much it would cost to return the goods before you were bound by the contract. They don't seem to have done this therefore they would be liable for the return costs.

    Of course getting them to agree that they're liable is another matter.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 8th Jan 18, 8:16 AM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    Because the goods can't be returned by normal post, they were under an obligation to tell you how much it would cost to return the goods before you were bound by the contract. They don't seem to have done this therefore they would be liable for the return costs.

    Of course getting them to agree that they're liable is another matter.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Reading through the Consumer Contracts Regs, I now see this is the most important part:

    where applicable, that the consumer will have to bear the cost of returning the goods in case of cancellation and, for distance contracts, if the goods, by their nature, cannot normally be returned by post, the cost of returning the goods

    On the eBay listing for the gravel, it just says:

    Returns: 14 days refund, buyer pays return postage | See details

    The details are just a standard eBay page about returning goods and what happens if goods are faulty etc.

    So is it the trader or eBay that is in breach of the Consumer Contracts Regulations?
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 9th Jan 18, 7:20 AM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    So after being made aware of the Consumer Contract Regulations and how the trader should have informed me of the cost of returning the gravel, I decided to make them aware of this.

    They've given me a full refund and are collecting the gravel, free of charge, on Friday.

    Seems harsh in expecting them to collect something when you've made a mistake or changed your mind.
    Originally posted by neilmcl
    But, it turns out, according to the law, because it cannot be returned by post, they have to collect it.
    Last edited by Supersonos; 09-01-2018 at 7:22 AM.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 9th Jan 18, 8:04 AM
    • 1,561 Posts
    • 1,003 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    But, it turns out, according to the law, because it cannot be returned by post, they have to collect it.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    Maybe you could show us where exactly it says that to assist anyone who may encounter a similar problem.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 9th Jan 18, 8:20 AM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    [The trader must make the consumer aware] where applicable, that the consumer will have to bear the cost of returning the goods in case of cancellation and, for distance contracts, if the goods, by their nature, cannot normally be returned by post, the cost of returning the goods

    The consumer may cancel a distance or off-premises contract at any time in the cancellation period without giving any reason

    The consumer must bear the direct cost of returning goods unless the trader failed to provide the consumer with the information about the consumer bearing those costs.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 9th Jan 18, 9:41 AM
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    agrinnall
    It's good that you've managed to convince them to collect, and I expect they will review their T&Cs after this so they don't get stung again. I presume you will be ordering the correct size gravel elsewhere, as I doubt if this company will want to do any more business with you.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 9th Jan 18, 10:21 AM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    It's good that you've managed to convince them to collect, and I expect they will review their T&Cs after this so they don't get stung again. I presume you will be ordering the correct size gravel elsewhere, as I doubt if this company will want to do any more business with you.
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    Why on Earth would a company want to do business with a customer who:

    - Is aware of their legal rights
    - Thoroughly reads the terms and conditions
    - Asks them to adhere to their legal obligations?

    Your insinuation is that the company should now refuse my business because they are out of pocket as a result of their own poor business practices.
    • MobileSaver
    • By MobileSaver 9th Jan 18, 12:44 PM
    • 1,417 Posts
    • 1,985 Thanks
    MobileSaver
    Your insinuation is that the company should now refuse my business because they are out of pocket as a result of their own poor business practices.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    They are out of pocket because of an oversight in their T&Cs. If I was in their shoes I would certainly refuse your business until my legal advisors had ensured this obscure part of the Consumer Contracts Regulations had been addressed and would probably refuse your business full stop anyway.
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    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 9th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    • 12,196 Posts
    • 8,246 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    Good to hear you are getting the item collected. A word of caution (which hopefully won't be needed) but as this was an eBay sale. The seller doesn't have to refund you unless you can prove delivery back to him via an online trackable means. You might want to take some form of receipt when they collect - it won't help with an eBay claim but may assist if you need to pursue matters via legal routes.

    edit - cancel sorry, I misread the part where you already say you've been refunded. That's even better.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 9th Jan 18, 2:23 PM
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    agrinnall

    Your insinuation is that the company should now refuse my business because they are out of pocket as a result of their own poor business practices.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    You're right, but the important thing for the company is that they are out of pocket - and they may see it as your fault for making the wrong choice in the first place. Hopefully you'll be able to find an alternative supplier, and I'm sure you will check both the size of the gravel and their T&Cs before placing your order.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 9th Jan 18, 2:58 PM
    • 10,028 Posts
    • 11,299 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    You're right, but the important thing for the company is that they are out of pocket - and they may see it as your fault for making the wrong choice in the first place.
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    But I wonder how many times that same company has made a profit on an order that a customer made, discovered that the goods ordered were unsuitable then failed to return those goods for a refund because the T&C's of the seller did not comply with the relevant consumer legislation?
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 9th Jan 18, 3:05 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    But I wonder how many times that same company has made a profit on an order that a customer made, discovered that the goods ordered were unsuitable then failed to return those goods for a refund because the T&C's of the seller did not comply with the relevant consumer legislation?
    Originally posted by shaun from Africa
    You're absolutely correct - really good point. Just on my purchse alone, I was prepared to take the hit on the £160 because it was cheaper than returning it.

    Had, before purchase, rather than the listing just saying "Buyer pays return postage" it had said "Buyer pays return postage - possible cost of return £700" I'd most certainly not have bothered.

    And look at all the responses on here that were ultimately telling me to suck it up and making me to look like the baddy.

    It's the trader who's the bad guy here. For hiding behind eBay's T&Cs and attempting to not follow legal procedures for his own profit.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 9th Jan 18, 3:28 PM
    • 1,561 Posts
    • 1,003 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    You're absolutely correct - really good point. Just on my purchse alone, I was prepared to take the hit on the £160 because it was cheaper than returning it.

    Had, before purchase, rather than the listing just saying "Buyer pays return postage" it had said "Buyer pays return postage - possible cost of return £700" I'd most certainly not have bothered.

    And look at all the responses on here that were ultimately telling me to suck it up and making me to look like the baddy.

    It's the trader who's the bad guy here. For hiding behind eBay's T&Cs and attempting to not follow legal procedures for his own profit.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    So the supplier is taking the hit, letís just hope the bag doesnít split when they attempt to lift it.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 9th Jan 18, 4:41 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    So the supplier is taking the hit, letís just hope the bag doesnít split when they attempt to lift it.
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....
    Absolutely, otherwise they'll have to spend quite a long time clearing it up.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 9th Jan 18, 5:10 PM
    • 1,153 Posts
    • 551 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    Absolutely, otherwise they'll have to spend quite a long time clearing it up.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    I bet they wonít. Itíll be sorry mate !!!! happens and theyíll drive off and leave it with you.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 9th Jan 18, 5:40 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    I bet they wonít. Itíll be sorry mate !!!! happens and theyíll drive off and leave it with you.
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    Then I'll charge them for the clean-up. After all, if their bags are going to be of such poor quality and their workers so incompetent, what do they expect?
    • camelot1971
    • By camelot1971 9th Jan 18, 6:19 PM
    • 795 Posts
    • 1,200 Thanks
    camelot1971
    Well done for costing a company a lot of money for your mistake. You must be very proud.
    • NCC-1707
    • By NCC-1707 9th Jan 18, 7:33 PM
    • 144 Posts
    • 321 Thanks
    NCC-1707
    Royal PITA...and very largely unthankful for help given.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 10th Jan 18, 8:28 AM
    • 20,321 Posts
    • 16,077 Thanks
    agrinnall
    But I wonder how many times that same company has made a profit on an order that a customer made, discovered that the goods ordered were unsuitable then failed to return those goods for a refund because the T&C's of the seller did not comply with the relevant consumer legislation?
    Originally posted by shaun from Africa
    Infrequently I would imagine, most people placing an order would take care to choose the right thing in the first place. And the only profit made is that profit that they would have made had the correct thing been bought, they have supplied the goods requested at the price agreed.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 10th Jan 18, 8:38 AM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    Well done for costing a company a lot of money for your mistake. You must be very proud.
    Originally posted by camelot1971
    I'm afraid you've confused me with the guy who wrote the company's T&Cs but failed to put in the cost of returning the goods.

    It's their mistake that's cost them, not mine.
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