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  • FIRST POST
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 6th Jan 18, 9:24 AM
    • 76Posts
    • 35Thanks
    Supersonos
    If a company delivers, are they obliged to collect?
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:24 AM
    If a company delivers, are they obliged to collect? 6th Jan 18 at 9:24 AM
    Let's say I order something online that needs specialised delivery - a couple of tonnes of gravel for example.

    The company offers free delivery and turns up with their lorry and its special hydraulic arm to lower the ton bags of gravel onto my driveway.

    Then, for whatever reason, I want to return it (maybe it's the wrong type of gravel or I've ordered too much or something) and the company agrees I can do so to get a refund. Clearly I can't just pop a couple of tonnes of gravel in the post and I don't have the necessary lorry to return it to them.

    Does the trader have some sort of legal obligation to collect the gravel? Or is it up to me to obtain an HGV licence and hire a lorry? Or find some third party with the necessary expertise and tools to return the gravel?
    Last edited by Supersonos; 06-01-2018 at 9:27 AM.
Page 2
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 7th Jan 18, 1:35 PM
    • 20,335 Posts
    • 16,088 Thanks
    agrinnall
    If you're not willing to find and pay for a haulier to take it back then you could spend a lot less money on a hammer and chisel and break each piece of gravel into smaller ones that are the right size
    • custardy
    • By custardy 7th Jan 18, 1:41 PM
    • 33,550 Posts
    • 28,508 Thanks
    custardy
    I'm not sure if you've read correctly. They haven't lost anything at all. And I'm not in the least suggesting they should take a hit, I'm fully accepting my mistake.

    But I'm suprised to learn through this thread that they can deliver something that requires specialist delivery, but then refuse to collect it.

    Their T&Cs say that, if the buyer changes their mind, the buyer needs to pay the return postage. That makes sense for a lot of the stuff they sell (gate furniture, gloves, tools etc.) but clearly that doesn't apply to something they have delivered using their staff and their lorry.

    I'm happy to pay for the cost of returning it, but they're not offering to collect it (for a fee) or suggesting a company/service that can.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    They refund your payment. They had part of the payment allocated to cover delivery/time for staff etc.
    Simple answer to me is do a deal to buy more gravel from them. combine delivery with uplift.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 7th Jan 18, 2:05 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    If you're not willing to find and pay for a haulier to take it back then you could spend a lot less money on a hammer and chisel and break each piece of gravel into smaller ones that are the right size
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    Please read the whole thread if you're going to comment.

    I am willing to find and pay for a haulier, but I can't find one what will do the job because I'm not trade.

    I really don't understand why everyone is so on the side of the trader. I'm happy to foot the bill, but it currently appears to be impossible for me to actually return the gravel.

    How can a trader agree to offer a refund if it's not possible for the consumer to return the goods?
    • JJ Egan
    • By JJ Egan 7th Jan 18, 2:26 PM
    • 10,504 Posts
    • 4,437 Thanks
    JJ Egan
    It is possible you just have not found a way to yet .
    So its up to you to sort out as trader is not responsible for your mistakes and neither is the forum .But you just want to shift the blame to the trader .
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 7th Jan 18, 2:35 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    It is possible you just have not found a way to yet .
    So its up to you to sort out as trader is not responsible for your mistakes and neither is the forum .But you just want to shift the blame to the trader .
    Originally posted by JJ Egan
    Wow. Ok. And all because I came on here for some advice.

    No attempt to shift the blame, no lies, just fully upfront and honest. I made a mistake. I wanted some help regarding my legal position. I'm just suprised a trader can put that they offer a refund but they not help out in me returning the goods.

    I'm quite sure that if the trader didn't offer delivery and expected every customer to work out a way of collecting ton bags of gravel, they'd quickly go out of business.
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 7th Jan 18, 2:45 PM
    • 3,640 Posts
    • 9,947 Thanks
    LilElvis
    OP - my husband works with haulage firms every day so I asked him how much a grab lorry would be. Answer is £500 - £600 per day excluding VAT.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 7th Jan 18, 2:56 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    OP - my husband works with haulage firms every day so I asked him how much a grab lorry would be. Answer is £500 - £600 per day excluding VAT.
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    Thanks for this info - that's very helpful. Considering the gravel came to £160, this would clearly not be an option. But I suspect the seller knows that and therefore knows he could offer full refunds knowing no-one will ever take them up on it.

    It's actually a great business model.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 7th Jan 18, 3:11 PM
    • 33,550 Posts
    • 28,508 Thanks
    custardy
    Please read the whole thread if you're going to comment.

    I am willing to find and pay for a haulier, but I can't find one what will do the job because I'm not trade.

    I really don't understand why everyone is so on the side of the trader. I'm happy to foot the bill, but it currently appears to be impossible for me to actually return the gravel.

    How can a trader agree to offer a refund if it's not possible for the consumer to return the goods?
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    Well you see,we all like to find the best prices.
    In general that means one size fits most.
    Think about the costs involved for (at least) one employee and hiab truck to do one collection alone.
    As i said,I think combining delivery/collection is the only possible agreement
    • powerful_Rogue
    • By powerful_Rogue 7th Jan 18, 3:43 PM
    • 3,398 Posts
    • 4,972 Thanks
    powerful_Rogue
    I'll be on my own with this view, but here goes!

    I think consumers have far too many rights, and I do actually feel sorry for the small businesses.

    Despite having plenty of protection, consumers always want more, and this thread is a glowing example of that. Why on earth should the company spend their time and money sorting out a return delivery method and then give you a full refund just because YOU changed your mind.

    In your case, I actually applaud the company. They are more then happy to offer you a full refund, but it's up to you to get the item back them.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 7th Jan 18, 3:56 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    I'll be on my own with this view, but here goes!

    I think consumers have far too many rights, and I do actually feel sorry for the small businesses.

    Despite having plenty of protection, consumers always want more, and this thread is a glowing example of that. Why on earth should the company spend their time and money sorting out a return delivery method and then give you a full refund just because YOU changed your mind.

    In your case, I actually applaud the company. They are more then happy to offer you a full refund, but it's up to you to get the item back them.
    Originally posted by powerful_Rogue
    I actually agree with you - the consumer does have some rights that seem ridiculously favourable.

    But in this case, I think the trader is being quite underhanded. When I bought the goods, I saw it said I could change my mind within 14 days for a no quibble refund, but I'd have to pay the return postage. Fair enough. And if the cost of 2 tonnes of gravel, delivered, is £160, I think it's fair to assume the cost of return postage would be less that this.

    But for the seller to agree to give me the refund but on condition that I return the gravel to him, seems a little unfair. It said I'd have to pay the return postage, not source a haulage company, open a trade account (which I can't anyway) and arrange the return.

    This company chooses to sell to the average consumer. The average consumer doesn't understand the intricacies of logisitcs so I think the trader, along with offering the refund, should offer ways of me completing the return.

    Or, at the very least, their T&Cs should say "Free delivery, 14 no-quibble money back guarantee, but any returns are wholly a the expense and arrangement of the buyer".

    The trader knows I won't be able to return the gravel, so he knows he doesn't have to honour his no quibble refund.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 7th Jan 18, 3:58 PM
    • 1,575 Posts
    • 1,012 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    Take it back a boot full at a time or forget about it.
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 7th Jan 18, 4:12 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    So what if the gravel was incorrect? What if the trader made a mistake? Could they still insist I return it to them before they sent out the correct order?
    • powerful_Rogue
    • By powerful_Rogue 7th Jan 18, 4:12 PM
    • 3,398 Posts
    • 4,972 Thanks
    powerful_Rogue
    I actually agree with you - the consumer does have some rights that seem ridiculously favourable.

    But in this case, I think the trader is being quite underhanded. When I bought the goods, I saw it said I could change my mind within 14 days for a no quibble refund, but I'd have to pay the return postage. Fair enough. And if the cost of 2 tonnes of gravel, delivered, is £160, I think it's fair to assume the cost of return postage would be less that this.

    But for the seller to agree to give me the refund but on condition that I return the gravel to him, seems a little unfair. It said I'd have to pay the return postage, not source a haulage company, open a trade account (which I can't anyway) and arrange the return.

    This company chooses to sell to the average consumer. The average consumer doesn't understand the intricacies of logisitcs so I think the trader, along with offering the refund, should offer ways of me completing the return.

    Or, at the very least, their T&Cs should say "Free delivery, 14 no-quibble money back guarantee, but any returns are wholly a the expense and arrangement of the buyer".

    The trader knows I won't be able to return the gravel, so he knows he doesn't have to honour his no quibble refund.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    It works both ways though. If I was going to purchase anything large, especially 2 tonnes, I would have made contact to clarify the returns process etc
    • Supersonos
    • By Supersonos 7th Jan 18, 4:15 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Supersonos
    Take it back a boot full at a time or forget about it.
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....
    No. This doesn't seem right. A trader shouldn't be able to offer a refund but put unrealistic terms on it to the point that the average consumer would never be able to obtain the promised refund.

    If I had collected the gravel I'd understand the trader telling me to bring it back. But the trader knows full well he'll never sell any gravel if he doesn't deliver it, so he should also offer to collect it.

    He's the one who has chosen to sell goods using a medium whereby the customer can't actually see the product until it has arrived at their door.
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 7th Jan 18, 4:16 PM
    • 12,213 Posts
    • 8,250 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    So what if the gravel was incorrect? What if the trader made a mistake? Could they still insist I return it to them before they sent out the correct order?
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    If the gravel wasn't as ordered or the trader made a mistake and sent you RSJ's for example, then no, it's not for you to fund/arrange the return. But that is because the trader has made the mistake.

    In your situation, regretfully, you have made the mistake. The trader only has to offer a refund on return. Nothing more.

    Is there really no way you can use the stone?

    In these situations there is sometimes a halfway-house - like custardy suggests or you agreeing to pay a return when they are next in your area.

    The issue you face is that companies who mostly deal with trade rather resent consumer legislation (as it doesn't apply B2B) and therefore they aren't likely to try and help you with anything that will involve any cost to them, quite rightly IMO.
    Last edited by theonlywayisup; 07-01-2018 at 4:18 PM.
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 7th Jan 18, 4:21 PM
    • 12,213 Posts
    • 8,250 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    No. This doesn't seem right. A trader shouldn't be able to offer a refund but put unrealistic terms on it to the point that the average consumer would never be able to obtain the promised refund.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    He is only forced to offer a refund on return, nothing more in this situation.

    He's the one who has chosen to sell goods using a medium whereby the customer can't actually see the product until it has arrived at their door.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    You chose to buy under these circumstances - a return isn't impossible by the customer, it's just that it's expensive..... The obvious and most sensible thing would to have asked for a sample or to visit and view in person before you order.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 7th Jan 18, 4:22 PM
    • 1,575 Posts
    • 1,012 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    No. This doesn't seem right. A trader shouldn't be able to offer a refund but put unrealistic terms on it to the point that the average consumer would never be able to obtain the promised refund. Has the trader put unrealistic terms on or is he complying with the Consumer Rights Act?

    If I had collected the gravel I'd understand the trader telling me to bring it back. But the trader knows full well he'll never sell any gravel if he doesn't deliver it, so he should also offer to collect it. Why, because you changed your mind?

    He's the one who has chosen to sell goods using a medium whereby the customer can't actually see the product until it has arrived at their door. Most places have a tray of samples or maxi bags in the yard for customers to view.
    Originally posted by Supersonos

    .............
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 7th Jan 18, 4:30 PM
    • 5,818 Posts
    • 6,712 Thanks
    Takeaway_Addict
    I actually agree with you - the consumer does have some rights that seem ridiculously favourable.

    But in this case, I think the trader is being quite underhanded. When I bought the goods, I saw it said I could change my mind within 14 days for a no quibble refund, but I'd have to pay the return postage. Fair enough. And if the cost of 2 tonnes of gravel, delivered, is £160, I think it's fair to assume the cost of return postage would be less that this.

    But for the seller to agree to give me the refund but on condition that I return the gravel to him, seems a little unfair. It said I'd have to pay the return postage, not source a haulage company, open a trade account (which I can't anyway) and arrange the return.

    This company chooses to sell to the average consumer. The average consumer doesn't understand the intricacies of logisitcs so I think the trader, along with offering the refund, should offer ways of me completing the return.

    Or, at the very least, their T&Cs should say "Free delivery, 14 no-quibble money back guarantee, but any returns are wholly a the expense and arrangement of the buyer".

    The trader knows I won't be able to return the gravel, so he knows he doesn't have to honour his no quibble refund.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    You just said it did by telling you to send it back by return postage.....its a general saying which the vast majority of people understand....what did you expect it to mean, post a piece via royal mail at a time?
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • cajef
    • By cajef 7th Jan 18, 4:42 PM
    • 4,769 Posts
    • 3,814 Thanks
    cajef
    He's the one who has chosen to sell goods using a medium whereby the customer can't actually see the product until it has arrived at their door.
    Originally posted by Supersonos
    We have a huge garden and we have had several tons of granite chippings delivered for landscaping, we made sure we got the size we wanted by going to a local merchants and selecting from the dumpy bags the size we wanted, that is what you should have done to save all this hassle by trying to save a few pounds buying something you had not seen, you are the one that chose to buy without seeing.
    Last edited by cajef; 07-01-2018 at 4:48 PM.
    I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 7th Jan 18, 4:56 PM
    • 12,433 Posts
    • 9,736 Thanks
    unholyangel
    13.—(1) Before the consumer is bound by a distance contract, the trader—

    (a)must give or make available to the consumer the information listed in Schedule 2 in a clear and comprehensible manner, and in a way appropriate to the means of distance communication used, and
    (b)if a right to cancel exists, must give or make available to the consumer a cancellation form as set out in part B of Schedule 3.

    <snip>

    (5) If the trader has not complied with paragraph (1) in respect of paragraph (g), (h) or (m) of Schedule 2, the consumer is not to bear the charges or costs referred to in those paragraphs.
    (m)where applicable, that the consumer will have to bear the cost of returning the goods in case of cancellation and, for distance contracts, if the goods, by their nature, cannot normally be returned by post, the cost of returning the goods;
    (5) The consumer must bear the direct cost of returning goods under paragraph (2), unless—

    (a)the trader has agreed to bear those costs, or
    (b)the trader failed to provide the consumer with the information about the consumer bearing those costs, required by paragraph (m) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

    (6) The contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must bear the direct cost of the consumer returning goods under paragraph (2) where paragraph (5)(b) applies.

    Because the goods can't be returned by normal post, they were under an obligation to tell you how much it would cost to return the goods before you were bound by the contract. They don't seem to have done this therefore they would be liable for the return costs.

    Of course getting them to agree that they're liable is another matter.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
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