Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • vidoukinas
    • By vidoukinas 5th Jan 18, 8:18 PM
    • 11Posts
    • 13Thanks
    vidoukinas
    Unique Parking Charge Notice situation!
    • #1
    • 5th Jan 18, 8:18 PM
    Unique Parking Charge Notice situation! 5th Jan 18 at 8:18 PM
    Dear all,

    I have read the existing advice quite extensively and although I do get the general gist of the advice that I should follow, I would still like to describe my situation and hear your thoughts... I hope that's alright.

    So, I am a leaseholder in a flat where the landowner has recently got Parking Control Management to manage our car park. A proper notice was given to us etc, however, just a couple of days after it all began, the parking permit wasnt displayed! The PCN has been issued late Nov' 17 and naively I have appealed it straight away through their website, genuinely believing that they would simply cancel it since as the keeper of the car i am a resident - they were employed to protect the residents after all! I've said that the parking permit has fallen down under the seat, and it wasnt apparent that it was not displayed etc... (i know, silly!) The driver was not identified. Since I have appealed to them myself I believe they have not used DVLA to obtain my personal details.

    Following their rejection, I have complained to the landowner hoping that they would cancel it (and i know that they have the power to, they just choose to be mean!). The landowner has contacted PCM and in a few days time got back to me saying that they can't help me with anything and in interests of treating all residents fairly they will not be intervening in this dispute.

    Ever since then I have ignored & forgot about the whole matter. Did not correspond with the landowner or the PCM.

    Today I have received a TRACE DEBT RECOVERY UK LIMITED letter, saying all the usual stuff such as my case been passed over to them, they now want £160, if i dont pay they will be forced to take further recovery action, etc, the appointed solicitors may be instructed to take your case to court, do not ignore, it is too late to appeal the original parking ticket, etc.

    The gist i am getting through reading this forum is to continue to ignore... what are your thoughts?

    P.S. don't know if this complicates things or not, but I have changed the number plate of my car during this whole process (as I mentioned before I believe they have not used DVLA to obtain my details since i wrote to them myself).

    P.P.S. They have taken photographs of my car and all the surrounding signage which 'proves' that the permit was not displayed, and they note that they wont be taking retrospective proof of being allowed to park

    Thanks
    Last edited by vidoukinas; 15-01-2018 at 3:35 PM.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Jan 18, 8:52 PM
    • 18,024 Posts
    • 28,554 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 5th Jan 18, 8:52 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Jan 18, 8:52 PM
    Nothing unique. We never see anything unique in this game, given the number of cases - hundreds per week - that we deal with.

    You!!!8217;re now at the debt collector stage, so you ignore them - they are powerless (read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #4 about dealing with debt collectors).

    Come back if PCM UK issue a court claim. They!!!8217;re quite litigious, so you need to get yourself clued up now, so that nothing that drops through your letterbox comes as any surprise. The sticky, post #2 is the place to start in understanding what might happen on the legal front.

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Parking_Control_Management_UK.html

    You need to be studying your lease and getting to the bottom of what it says about your right to park. Go through your lease and post up here what it says about your parking rights and any limitations. Someone with experience on that front will offer some advice.

    HTH
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 5th Jan 18, 8:55 PM
    • 3,412 Posts
    • 4,554 Thanks
    waamo
    • #3
    • 5th Jan 18, 8:55 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Jan 18, 8:55 PM
    Know your enemy
    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Car_Park_Management_Services_CPMS.html

    I await the unique part with interest though.
    This space for hire.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Jan 18, 9:08 PM
    • 18,024 Posts
    • 28,554 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:08 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:08 PM
    Know your enemy
    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Car_Park_Management_Services_CPMS.html

    I await the unique part with interest though.
    Originally posted by waamo
    Not sure it!!!8217;s CPMS @waamo - the OP says its PCM.

    the landowner has recently got Parking Control Management to manage our car park.
    @OP - so many of these outfits have very similar names. Can you clear any confusion please as to the precise name of the parking company you are dealing with.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 5th Jan 18, 9:09 PM
    • 3,311 Posts
    • 4,837 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    • #5
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:09 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:09 PM
    So, I am a leaseholder in a flat where the landowner has recently got Parking Control Management to manage our car park.
    Originally posted by vidoukinas
    Surely as a leaseholder, YOU may well be the landowner (at least the landholder) of the parking space, especially if it's an allocated space. Check your lease carefully. What you'll probably find is that the management company who are NOT the landowner, has employed the parking company.
    • vidoukinas
    • By vidoukinas 5th Jan 18, 9:16 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    vidoukinas
    • #6
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:16 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:16 PM
    Dear all, thank you for your replies.

    To clarify the name of the company -> Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd.
    As a new user I am not allowed to post a link to the BMPA website.

    Surely as a leaseholder, YOU may well be the landowner (at least the landholder) of the parking space, especially if it's an allocated space. Check your lease carefully. What you'll probably find is that the management company who are NOT the landowner, has employed the parking company.
    Unfortunately there are no allocated parking spaces in our car park. The owner is a housing association so I am convinced they would be the actual owner, however I will go ahead and dig up any documents I can find and try to find out for sure.

    Thank you for your comments!
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Jan 18, 9:24 PM
    • 7,720 Posts
    • 7,469 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:24 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:24 PM
    To clarify the name of the company -> Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd.
    As a new user I am not allowed to post a link to the BMPA website.
    Originally posted by vidoukinas
    Link is in post #2 above.
    .
    • waamo
    • By waamo 5th Jan 18, 9:27 PM
    • 3,412 Posts
    • 4,554 Thanks
    waamo
    • #8
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:27 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:27 PM
    Not sure itís CPMS @waamo - the OP says its PCM.



    @OP - so many of these outfits have very similar names. Can you clear any confusion please as to the precise name of the parking company you are dealing with.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    I really need new glasses. Poundland ones donít seem to work very well.
    This space for hire.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jan 18, 11:03 PM
    • 58,549 Posts
    • 72,059 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:03 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:03 PM
    You should take time to read the threads by hairray, and Daniel san. Seek them out and read every post.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • vidoukinas
    • By vidoukinas 15th Jan 18, 1:59 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    vidoukinas
    Thank you all for the information and apologies for disappearing for so long - as we know life takes over and none of us got time for these people!!!

    I will carefully examine hairray!!!8217;s and Daniel!!!8217;s cases.

    I have gone through the lease and it is clearly stated that the Landlord, who is a housing association, is the owner of the property comprising the flats, together with the parking and common areas.
    There are absolutely no restrictions, as far as I can understand, regarding the common areas (parking included)

    One bit that worries me, and that I do not fully understand, is:

    Fourth schedule hereto and the existing encumbrances contained or referred to in the Property and Chargers Registers of the Landlords title so far as the same relate to the demised premises and are still subsisting and capable of being enforced and the tenant will so far as aforesaid indemnify and keep indemnified the Landlord from and against all actions claims and demands in respect of any future breach or any future non observance or non-performance thereof.
    This is complete gibberish to my mind, but I assume this is to do with much more serious than parking charges things, such as service charge etc...

    And finally, a paragraph to make me feel better:

    The Tenant performing and observing the several covenants on his part and the conditions herein contained shall peaceably hold and enjoy the demised premises during the said term without any interruption by the landlord or any person rightfully claiming under or in trust for it.
    In the meantime, I will follow the forum!!!8217;s advice and ignore the debt collector, at least for now, whilst I research hairray and Daniel.
    P.S. The debt collector gave me some time before they take further action..

    Thank you
    Last edited by vidoukinas; 15-01-2018 at 3:36 PM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Jan 18, 2:06 PM
    • 35,912 Posts
    • 20,185 Thanks
    Quentin
    Debt collectors cannot "take further action". Just keep pestering

    Ignore them!!
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Jan 18, 3:18 PM
    • 36,815 Posts
    • 83,303 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Fourth schedule hereto and the existing encumbrances contained or referred to in the Property and Chargers Registers of the Landlords title so far as the same relate to the demised premises and are still subsisting and capable of being enforced and the tenant will so far as aforesaid indemnify and keep indemnified the Landlord from and against all actions claims and demands in respect of any future breach or any future non observance or non-performance thereof.

    I think that means the landlord isn't liable ... but it really needs translating into plain English otherwise it could be construed as being an unfair term.

    The Tenant performing and observing the several covenants on his part and the conditions herein contained shall peaceably hold and enjoy the demised premises during the said term without any interruption by the landlord or any person rightfully claiming under or in trust for it.

    This is the good news. A third party does not have the right to enforce something that is not in the lease, such as a parking permit scheme. The scammers don't have the right to demand payment to a third party, for example they aren't entitled to money if you don't display a permit.
    Your lease has primacy of contract, and a third party such as parking scammers have no right to alter or override . that contract.

    See here what judges have said about residential parking.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    Hopefully by now you will have realised that your case is not unique at all, but is one of far too many we see here on a daily basis.

    Please help us by telling WHICH Magazine about this scam where a resident has received demands for payment for using their own demised parking space. Link in post 1 of this thread. It only takes a couple of minutes.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5765579
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 15-01-2018 at 3:54 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • vidoukinas
    • By vidoukinas 29th Jan 18, 1:56 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    vidoukinas
    Hi there guys,

    Just an update.

    The debt collectors sent a 'final demand' letter and the next course of action is to pass it on to their solicitor for further recovery action.

    Continuing to ignore.

    Also, had another look at the lease agreement and the paragraph I have written out above
    The Tenant performing and observing the several covenants on his part and the conditions herein contained shall peaceably hold and enjoy the demised premises during the said term without any interruption by the landlord or any person rightfully claiming under or in trust for it.
    Is referring to the demised premises and by definition in the lease agreement, the demised premises is the apartment itself, so the common parts such as parking are not a part of this.

    There is also another part to the lease agreement that states that rules regarding the use of the common parts (parking, corridors, bins etc) might be changed my the landlord, which now worries me.. I can fetch the exact wording if this causes any worries to any of you?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jan 18, 9:21 PM
    • 58,549 Posts
    • 72,059 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes show us that wording.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • vidoukinas
    • By vidoukinas 5th Feb 18, 2:04 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    vidoukinas
    Sorry for constantly disappearing, guys...
    So, the wording regarding the above is as follows:
    It explains some of the expressions used in the Lease document, one of which is of interest to us:

    "the demised premises" - means the Flat referred to in the particulars.
    Which is simply the address of our property, with a floor plan drawing outlining the area of our flat.
    And it carries on to list what is included within the "demised premises", and it does not include anything regarding the common parts (parking), and what is not included, such as:

    any part or parts of the Property lying above the said surfaces of the ceilings or below the said floor surfaces
    This can simply be interpreted as "you do not own anything else above the ceiling or below the floor of your flat". Which means we do not own the "common parts", to which the parking areas belong.
    Hence, the paragraph I have written out above, stating that "it makes me feel better", it no longer does, as it is referring to the "demised premises", as below:

    The tenant performing and observing the several covenants on his part and the conditions herein contained shall peaceably hold and enjoy the demised premises during the said term without any interruption by the landlord or any person rightfully claiming under or in trust for it.
    The additional paragraph that is making me feel on edge, is this:

    "The common parts" means (in this part it just lists everything included within the common parts, of which Parking is a part of) provided by the Landlord for the common use of the residents in the Property and their visitors and not subject to any lease or tenancy which the Landlord is entitled to the reversion.
    Also

    "THE TENANT HEREBY COVENANTS with the landlord as follows". During the said term to perform and observe the regulations set out in the Fourth Schedule hereto PROVIDED that the Landlord servers the right to add to by notice modify or waive such regulations in its absolute discretion.
    (the fourth schedule is just a bunch of rules such as the demised premises must not be used for anything illegal or the windows must be kept clean at all times etc)

    Also

    The right in common with the Landlord or its servants agents and other tenants of the flats to use the entrance halls staircase passages passenger lifts and the drives paths gardens and other parts used in common within the curtilage of the Property aforesaid subject to such rules and regulations for the common enjoyment thereof as the Landlord may from time to time prescribe
    Reading all of the above all at once, it seems that if the parking charge was to go to court, I can not play the "my lease does not say I need to display a parking permit" card. Oh well..

    Thank you for your help very much guys, and I await your thoughts.
    Kind regards,
    V

    P.S. According to BMPA, Parking Control Management already had 66 court hearings in 2018...
    The whole situation is incredibly frustrating, the landlord refused to cancel the ticket in "interest of fairness" which just makes me feel betrayed.
    Last edited by vidoukinas; 05-02-2018 at 2:06 PM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 5th Feb 18, 2:23 PM
    • 36,815 Posts
    • 83,303 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Sorry for constantly disappearing, guys...
    So, the wording regarding the above is as follows:
    It explains some of the expressions used in the Lease document, one of which is of interest to us:



    Which is simply the address of our property, with a floor plan drawing outlining the area of our flat.
    And it carries on to list what is included within the "demised premises", and it does not include anything regarding the common parts (parking), and what is not included, such as:



    This can simply be interpreted as "you do not own anything else above the ceiling or below the floor of your flat". Which means we do not own the "common parts", to which the parking areas belong.
    Hence, the paragraph I have written out above, stating that "it makes me feel better", it no longer does, as it is referring to the "demised premises", as below:



    The additional paragraph that is making me feel on edge, is this:



    Also


    (the fourth schedule is just a bunch of rules such as the demised premises must not be used for anything illegal or the windows must be kept clean at all times etc)

    Also



    Reading all of the above all at once, it seems that if the parking charge was to go to court, I can not play the "my lease does not say I need to display a parking permit" card. Oh well..

    Thank you for your help very much guys, and I await your thoughts.
    Kind regards,
    V

    P.S. According to BMPA, Parking Control Management already had 66 court hearings in 2018...
    The whole situation is incredibly frustrating, the landlord refused to cancel the ticket in "interest of fairness" which just makes me feel betrayed.
    Originally posted by vidoukinas
    Which part of your lease says you must display a permit then, or pay a third party if you don't display a permit?
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Computersaysno
    • By Computersaysno 5th Feb 18, 3:05 PM
    • 960 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    Computersaysno
    I love the fact that so many posters on here think their case is 'unique'.......can't remeber the last thread where there was anything even vaguely interesting. let alone unique, in it.....lol.
    Welcome to the world of 'Protect the brand at the cost of free speech'
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Feb 18, 11:12 PM
    • 58,549 Posts
    • 72,059 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Reading all of the above all at once, it seems that if the parking charge was to go to court, I can not play the "my lease does not say I need to display a parking permit" card. Oh well..
    Don't see why not, and the writing is on the wall re predatory firms in residential car parks:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5787731

    Residents being unfairly ticketed was discussed at length and Gladstones were singled out too.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • vidoukinas
    • By vidoukinas 7th Feb 18, 1:44 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    vidoukinas
    Thank you all once again for the replies and making me feel a little calmer

    Kindest regards,
    V!!
    • vidoukinas
    • By vidoukinas 18th Mar 18, 9:46 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    vidoukinas
    Soo, Gladstones habe sent me a letter, predated a week early. Those !!!!!!!s. I've only got 5 days to get a letter to them. It's gotta be first class tomorrow. (it's the usual stuff I've seen around the forum; their client might instruct them to take legal action in the County Court etc.)

    Will post what Im thinking to reply to them soon.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,074Posts Today

5,568Users online

Martin's Twitter