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  • FIRST POST
    • Strawblues
    • By Strawblues 5th Jan 18, 4:10 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Strawblues
    transfer of liability
    • #1
    • 5th Jan 18, 4:10 PM
    transfer of liability 5th Jan 18 at 4:10 PM
    Hello, I'm a newbie here so I apologise in advance if this enquiry has been posted before but if it has I can't find it.
    I don't think my parking experience is in any way unique but here's the story so far.
    Back in June I leant my car to a friend of a friend and he obviously incurred the wrath of Link Parking limited. The first I heard about it was a letter from said company informing me that I owed them 100.00 in parking charges. On the back of the letter was a form called Transfer Of Liability which, as I wasn't driving the vehicle at the time, I filled in and duly returned.
    Next I received a letter from Gladstones Solicitors telling me I now owed 160. I wrote back to them informing them that I had filled in the Transfer Of Liability form and had sent it to Link Parking Limited. I gave them a copy of the form and the name and address of the driver once more. At this point I should point out that the driver was a British national working abroad and his address was in Thailand.
    Gladstones wrote back saying that their clients had not received my completed form and they wanted evidence that the nominated driver was insured and a copy of his driving licence. I did not reply to this as I reasoned that if they needed this information they should obtain it from the driver.
    I then received a communication from the County Court Business Centre asking me to fill in their forms which I did. The amount claimed by this time was 240.19
    Subsequently I received what I believe is a standard Gladstones letter saying that they would like the case to be dealt with on the papers and that their client had elected not to mediate.
    Now I have received a date from the court for the hearing to take place early in March.
    As far as I know Gladstones have not attempted to contact the driver.
    So when this goes to court what will be the likely outcome? I have assumed all the way through that they couldn't win this case but now I'm wondering if I've missed something or if there's a point of law of which I am unaware.
    Can anyone help me?
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 5th Jan 18, 4:31 PM
    • 36,804 Posts
    • 83,277 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 5th Jan 18, 4:31 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Jan 18, 4:31 PM
    Nobody here can predict the outcome. Sadly you will have to suitably defend this, but ask the court at the earliest opportunity in writing to strike out the claim as they are pursuing the wrong person.

    There is a handy guide to court written by Bargepole in the NEWBIES thread so that should be your starting point.

    As an aside, please will you contact WHICH magazine using the link from this thread to tell them briefly of your plight. The more people that contact WHICH, the more likely they are to take up this unregulated scam industry as their next cause.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5765579
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 05-01-2018 at 5:20 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 5th Jan 18, 4:48 PM
    • 7,539 Posts
    • 10,033 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #3
    • 5th Jan 18, 4:48 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Jan 18, 4:48 PM
    The sheer incompetence of Gladstones is staggering

    How did you tell them, letter or email ?
    Maybe Link ignored this as the address was in Thailand ?

    You have taken all liability away from yourself

    This surely sounds like Gladstones will be whooped
    again court as they are taking the wrong person to court

    NO TO PAPERS ..... They are unsure if they will win
    NO TO DRIVERS LICENCE OR INSURANCE
    NOTHING TO DO WITH GLADSTONES

    In good old Gladstones fashion, they might ask you
    to settle this by offering a discount.
    BUT once you say NO NO NO chances are high
    that they will discontinue.

    If you do go to court have a costs schedule ready
    in your favour for the judge
    Unreasonable behaviour and taking the wrong
    person to court ..... very serious.

    The courts already know about the incompetent
    Gladstones as do we all
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Jan 18, 5:07 PM
    • 9,497 Posts
    • 9,253 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #4
    • 5th Jan 18, 5:07 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Jan 18, 5:07 PM
    I agree with Mr B, this is most un reasonable conduct for a firm of solicitors , and you should strenuously seek CPR27.14(2)(g) costs.


    Far too many people do not bother.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 5th Jan 18, 5:17 PM
    • 7,539 Posts
    • 10,033 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #5
    • 5th Jan 18, 5:17 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Jan 18, 5:17 PM
    I agree with Mr B, this is most un reasonable conduct for a firm of solicitors , and you should strenuously seek CPR27.14(2)(g) costs.


    Far too many people do not bother.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Agreed Mr D but it is after all Gladstones
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 5th Jan 18, 5:49 PM
    • 2,748 Posts
    • 3,413 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #6
    • 5th Jan 18, 5:49 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Jan 18, 5:49 PM
    Ok, please tell us your EXACT defence

    Your court hearing form will have told you when !!!8220;documents!!!8221; need to be exchanged. What is that date, and you are I hope aware that this means you MUST create a witness statement. This will be key Id say, a sthis is where you insert copies of any correspondence , including your consistent assertions as to 5e identity of the driver, and that you sent this in good time.

    Knowing GS there!!!8217;s no cause of action listed, and they will allege you were the driver at the time in their ws (by stating defendant did not purchase x or overstayed by y) as they!!!8217;re such cheap skates they pay no attention
    • Strawblues
    • By Strawblues 5th Jan 18, 11:24 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Strawblues
    • #7
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:24 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:24 PM
    Thanks so much for your input.
    I informed Gladstones by letter each time.
    The court date is March 8th and the letter from the court states that each party must deliver to the other party and the court office all documents on which that party intends to rely on at the hearing no later than 14 days before the hearing.
    I'm out of my depth here I don't know how to prepare a witness statement or what documents I need to present to the court.
    And how do I seek costs?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jan 18, 11:26 PM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,939 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:26 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:26 PM
    Luckily, all of that is in the NEWBIES thread post #2, with examples.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 6th Jan 18, 12:00 AM
    • 7,539 Posts
    • 10,033 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 12:00 AM
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 12:00 AM
    I'm out of my depth here I don't know how to prepare a witness statement or what documents I need to present to the court.
    And how do I seek costs?
    Originally posted by Strawblues
    HA, if you think you are out of your depth, just pause
    and think about Gladstones ??

    You are very fortunate to have on this forum, a couple
    of great REAL solicitors plus very experienced members
    with one aim in mind and that is to ZAP.
    To coupon-mad, it's like swatting flies

    You are in the right place. You are on a winner


    My opinion for what it's worth, is that Gladstones would
    be totally round the bend to continue
    But, it seems they get a weird thrill when they are whooped
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Strawblues
    • By Strawblues 6th Jan 18, 11:44 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Strawblues
    Here is a draft of my WS. It seems rather short. Is there anything I should add?

    1, The facts in this statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my own knowledge they are true to the best of my information and belief.

    2, I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all and this is my witness statement to support my defence already filed.

    3, I assert that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in this case. I was not the driver.

    4, I filled in the Transfer Of Liability form sent to me by the Claimant and returned it promptly.

    5, I subsequently heard from the Claimant's solicitors (Gladstones Solicitors) that the Claimant alleges they did not receive the form.

    6, I sent a copy of the completed form to Gladstones and added the name and address of the driver to the letter.

    7, Gladestones replied to my letter asking for a copy of the driver's driving licence and details of his insurance which I did not give them.

    8, I subsequently received a copy and paste letter from Gladstones informing me that they had included a completed copy of the Claimant's Small Claims Directions Questionnaire. This was not true and I still have not received this although I promptly informed Gladstones of their error.

    9, I have not received any Witness Statement or any other paperwork from the Claimant or their solicitors.

    10, The Court is invited to dismiss this Claim, and to allow my wasted costs which will be submitted separately and in a timely manner, depending upon whether a hearing takes place. I firmly believe that to pursue me as registered keeper is wholly unreasonable and vexatious.

    I believe the facts stated in this Defence Statement are true.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 1:58 PM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,939 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Start with this, (first intro para not numbered):

    __________________

    WITNESS STATEMENT
    __________________


    I, xxxxx xxxxxxx, of xx xxxxxx xxxxxxx, xxxxxx, POSTCODE, the Defendant in this matter, will say as follows. Where exhibits are referenced in this document, they are shown as (myinitials1), (myinitials2) etc., and attached to the statement.


    3, I assert that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in this case. I was not the driver, entered into no contract with this Claimant and cannot be held liable for any sum at all. I lent my car to a friend of a friend - Mr xxxxxx xxxxxxx on the material date, and the Claimant is fully aware of this fact.
    Add as #4 (and move the rest down a number):

    4. The first I heard about any alleged 'unauthorised' parking event, was a letter from the Claimant demanding 100.00 in unevidenced 'parking charges'. On the back of the letter was a form called Transfer Of Liability which, as I wasn't driving the vehicle at the time, I filled in and duly returned, a document which was deemed delivered two working days after posting (the Claimant is put to strict proof to the contrary). No response was received from the Claimant, who effectively ignored the details given, and I found out later that this Claimant has never attempted to contact the driver.
    6, I sent a further copy of the completed form to Gladstones. and added the name and address of the driver to the letter.
    7, Gladstones replied to my letter asking for a copy of the driver's driving licence and details of his insurance which I did not give them, not only because they had no right to such data but because it was for the Claimant to take that matter up with the named driver.
    Then add another point under that one:

    The driver was a British National working abroad, and his address was in Thailand. Having given his name and address to the Claimant/their Solicitors (twice) I had fully transferred any liability I might have had as registered keeper, as required under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. The Act does not require a UK address for a driver, only an address where the driver can be contacted, and the driver could indisputably have been contacted at the address given.

    And add at the end, which I think after additions will be #13 and #14:

    13. Section 4(5) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 states that the maximum sum which can be recovered from the keeper is that which is stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case 100. The keeper cannot in fact be pursued at all, when they have transferred liability to a named driver, with an address being given. However, the Claimant, or their legal representatives, have continued with the easier but unlawful option of pursuing me instead of contacting the driver in Thailand, and have added various spurious and arbitrary amounts to the claim, inflating the total to 240.19. Even if I were liable to the Claimant for the parking charge (which is denied), these additional sums are non-contractual, and irrecoverable by the Claimant.

    14. In summary, I submit that, for any or all of the reasons stated above, the Claimant is not entitled to the relief in the sum claimed, or at all, and I invite the Court to dismiss the claim in its entirety, and to award such Defence witness costs as are permissible pursuant to CPR 27.14.


    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.

    SIGNATURE


    ADDRESS

    Evidence you might supply with this statement would include:

    - a copy of the Transfer of Liability form you completed
    - any proof of where you were, or details of the other car you were driving that week (insurance or whatever)
    - pictures of the LACK OF signs, if you are local (and you could add a point saying the signs are not prominent so even though you were not the driver, notwithstanding your primary defence, you assert that no contract was formed)
    - a copy of Jopson v Homeguard (transcript available in the Parking Prankster's case law) but ONLY IF the location was a residential block of flats where you believe the driver was authorised to park/stop/unload??? If so you will need to add a point saying the driver has informed you that xxxxxxxx (blah blah).

    And also ask the driver to include a point about his right to park/no contravention of terms/not unauthorised, in HIS own WS you need him to cough up urgently for you!

    Like I say, you will need (as it will assist you) a second witness statement from the driver (get him to sign a simple one and email a scan to you) confirming that he was the driver on the occasion in question, was fully insured to drive cars on a third party basis, and that he has never been contacted by the Claimant about any matter relating to it so has never been offered any right of appeal, nor pursued over it.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 06-01-2018 at 2:41 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Strawblues
    • By Strawblues 6th Jan 18, 2:37 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Strawblues
    Many many thanks Coupon-mad. That's brilliant! I will make those amendments. I gather I have to send a copy to the Court and to Gladstones. Should I do that soon or leave it until nearer the cutoff time?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 2:43 PM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,939 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Leave it nearer in the hope of seeing their utter dross WS first, so you can pick holes in it too.

    And you will need to spend time now getting that second signed WS from the driver. Honestly it could make or break your case, IMHO, as it demonstrates the truth of your statements.

    You could also gather evidence about the car park and circumstances, to add to your WS. Like I said, if it was a residential block of flats, how about secondary evidence (photos, if you are local) that the signs are pants/missing/obscured, and that the driver WAS authorised to be there...

    Can you tell us more about the situation, car park, why he parked there? You do need to know as much as possible.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Strawblues
    • By Strawblues 6th Jan 18, 4:04 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Strawblues
    He parked behind a charity shop in the evening when it was closed I gather. It may have been too dark to see the signs, I don't know.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 6th Jan 18, 6:32 PM
    • 9,497 Posts
    • 9,253 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is almost certain to be thrown out by the judge, why do Gladstones persist? Surlely this meets the test of unreasonable conduct.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 7:40 PM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,939 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    He parked behind a charity shop in the evening when it was closed I gather. It may have been too dark to see the signs, I don't know.
    Originally posted by Strawblues
    OK so he can put in his WS that it was pitch black & unlit, and no signs, let alone terms, were visible.

    And you could mirror that in your WS, saying that the driver told you that the car park was unlit...no signs seen...blah blah...so there was neither a 'relevant contract', nor 'relevant obligation' communicated by 'adequate notice' at this location at night, so it fails the tests in the POFA on those fundamental issuesand as such, as keeper you can't be held liable, even if you had not transferred the liability.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 06-01-2018 at 7:42 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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