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  • FIRST POST
    • MatthewAinsworth
    • By MatthewAinsworth 5th Jan 18, 1:24 PM
    • 3,079Posts
    • 1,224Thanks
    MatthewAinsworth
    Leaving a job is a breach of a "permanent" contract...
    • #1
    • 5th Jan 18, 1:24 PM
    Leaving a job is a breach of a "permanent" contract... 5th Jan 18 at 1:24 PM
    Hi everyone

    I feel the expectation of an employer to honour a permanent contract eternally but not the employee is wrong in law. If you were to leave a phone contract prematurely you'd have to buy it out, why do we not have the same with employment too? The employer should be able to sue the employee the value of the work they're nolonger providing, for as long as the contract would otherwise apply (I.e. in perpetuity).

    This would increase the supply of labour which would help keep wages and conditions under control, which would ultimately help everybody's investments. With this change employers wouldn't be forced to increase wages unless it was stipulated in contract
Page 2
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Jan 18, 3:21 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
    • 2,939 Thanks
    Comms69
    Comms - working backwards, if my fund keeps doubling every 5 years...

    5 years before 1m I need 500k
    10 years before I need 250k
    15 years before need 125k
    20 years before I need 62.5k
    25 years before I need 31.25k
    30 years before I need just less than 16k
    35 years before I need 8k - that's where I'm at

    That's if I make no extra contributions (although I will) - behold the power of compounding
    And I'm young enough

    Google Vanguard global small cap...
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth

    It's a hedge fund. It's certainly not guaranteed.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Jan 18, 3:22 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
    • 2,939 Thanks
    Comms69
    This isn't because they love their job or their employer but because they are afraid they will get sacked for taking that leave.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    And many can carry over holidays.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 5th Jan 18, 3:24 PM
    • 10,729 Posts
    • 8,983 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    I enjoy philosophical debate
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth
    "Philosophical" is not a synonym for "illogical"
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 5th Jan 18, 4:06 PM
    • 4,668 Posts
    • 7,874 Thanks
    sangie595
    Diamondis - your first assumption is the correct explanation, I enjoy philosophical debate
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth
    The place for "debate" is the discussion time board, a fact I am sure that you are aware of. Your propositions are an insult to working people

    There is no philosophy in here. I'd normally suggest it's actually economics, but in fact it isn't economics either

    I think that you would find this debate more fruitful at a Tory party funders meeting - but they might thing you too right wing for their company. But keep an eye on the White House. There are always openings for lunatics there....
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 5th Jan 18, 4:07 PM
    • 5,818 Posts
    • 6,712 Thanks
    Takeaway_Addict
    You're advocating zero hours contracts on a board for employee rights.

    This has to be a wind up!
    Originally posted by BorisThomson
    Techinally its employment rights so could and is used by businesses
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • MatthewAinsworth
    • By MatthewAinsworth 5th Jan 18, 4:26 PM
    • 3,079 Posts
    • 1,224 Thanks
    MatthewAinsworth
    Comms -
    . It's a hedge fund. It's certainly not guaranteed.
    Index fund, hedge funds are rubbish and expensive. Index funds are more diverse and cheaper and tend to do better than humans
    And certainly not guaranteed, but highly probable. Nothing is guaranteed in life, and I think increasing my income reduces my overall risk

    Lincroft - why is it illogical?

    Sangie - it's hard to keep debate out of discussion, at first this was a legality query
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 5th Jan 18, 4:42 PM
    • 1,475 Posts
    • 1,117 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Why is it that whenever a poster claims to only want to "debate" an issue, they never listen to what anybody else says?


    Clearly a potential parliamentary candidate
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 5th Jan 18, 6:02 PM
    • 32,192 Posts
    • 19,350 Thanks
    getmore4less
    Is it only the break clauses that make it non permanent? If so the employer generally has to find fault or prove they don't need the employee, whereas the employee needs to prove nothing, this seems like a mismatch - the employee could fire the company if the company flouts rules or if the employee found the company "redundant" I.e the employee could show that they had an alternative offer if income / pension

    If we made "permanent" contracts a pain in the butt, we'd see a shift more towards fixed term and zero hours, this may be good for business itself, since "permanent" contracts don't give the employer much real security compared to what they give the employee, so they're not mutual
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth
    It's actually quite easy for an employer to put a level playing field in place if they want under the current legislation, the provision of redundancy can be built into the offer of employment(pay a but less)

    Currently the employment contract does not need break clauses because statute provides them, to make an employee "permanent" in your contracts would require very specific wording.

    Also with your proposal if someone died their estate would owe the company.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 5th Jan 18, 6:04 PM
    • 16,539 Posts
    • 41,758 Thanks
    elsien
    Bad memory - that's what I'm trying to say, fear is a cheaper way to motivate people than paying them well.
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth
    Now I really have read it all. Isn't that how revolutions generally start?
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 5th Jan 18, 6:11 PM
    • 4,668 Posts
    • 7,874 Thanks
    sangie595
    Now I really have read it all. Isn't that how revolutions generally start?
    Originally posted by elsien
    Nope. Revolutions are started with hope, not fear...
    • keepcalmandstayoutofdebt
    • By keepcalmandstayoutofdebt 5th Jan 18, 7:05 PM
    • 3,239 Posts
    • 1,697 Thanks
    keepcalmandstayoutofdebt

    If we made "permanent" contracts a pain in the butt, we'd see a shift more towards fixed term and zero hours, this may be good for business itself, since "permanent" contracts don't give the employer much real security compared to what they give the employee, so they're not mutual
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth
    Pfft ! Fixed term contracts are already happening! As much as everyone suggests I must be on something and lying - the last 3 roles and absolutely likely next 1 I start have all been fixed term/as needed basis. I understand why it happens. There are great savings to be had when you need to contribute to someone's pension and that's why it works out in the employer's best interest to every so often have a position to re-fill so contributions are kept to a minimum.

    The only workplace that auto enrolled for a pension straight away was not one I wanted to work at neither - no holiday allowed in what 9 months. And that included a second chance along the way. So perhaps I will be choosy where ever possible, in who I work for.

    Noticed a shift to in interview notice as well - these days you'll often get contacted to attend next day, the very day before.

    Oh and to upset further - got to say that Xmas temp job where my access card was stopped very much preventing me from working for the last week - well I got my week's pay paid today very gratefully, when yes they likely would have been entitled to keep it, you see it was a win-win in the end the employer would rather not want to be paying 2 weeks when the business levels were reduced...neither would I have liked to be in the situation honestly, for all the reading of you should just suck it up blah blah.

    I think your thread should remain here and not in discussion time when just as much philosophical threads of 'is this it for 10/20/30 years' clearly get to remain.
    "If you are caught in a rainstorm, once you accept that you'll receive a soaking, the only thing left to do is enjoy the walk"
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 5th Jan 18, 7:25 PM
    • 1,475 Posts
    • 1,117 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Hi everyone

    I feel the expectation of an employer to honour a permanent contract eternally (As other posters have pointed out, your opening point is wholly mistaken - there is no such thing as a permanent contract. Is it necessary to continue? Let's assume it is.) but not the employee is wrong in law (It can't be wrong in law as that is what the law is. What point are you trying to make?). If you were to leave a phone contract prematurely you'd have to buy it out, (because that is what the T&Cs you agreed to, say, but employment law is different!) why do we not have the same with employment too? The employer should be able to sue the employee the value of the work they're nolonger providing, for as long as the contract would otherwise apply (I.e. in perpetuity) As explained above, no contract can apply in perpetuity. What happens when one of the parties die? Do the employees children have to start working for their deceased parent's employer? And if the employer died, they'd have to keep paying their employees?).

    This would increase the supply of labour which would help keep wages (What about price inflation?) and conditions under control, which would ultimately help everybody's investments (Neither I nor my wife have any anything other than trivial investments amounting to about 100 dividends pa. Are you bonkers?). With this change employers wouldn't be forced to increase wages unless it was stipulated in contract
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth

    As, from some of your other posts, you are desprate to raise a loan on a 13 yr old car and seem to be bit worried(?) about finding another job if necessary, why are you posting this rubbish?


    EDIT: You also don't seem to know what the law is or what "legality" means. I would respectively suggest that you (1) do not raise questions about subjects you seem to know little about and, (2) don't tell me you've been looking at FMotL sites, please...
    Last edited by Manxman in exile; 05-01-2018 at 7:57 PM. Reason: still apparently deluded op
    • MatthewAinsworth
    • By MatthewAinsworth 5th Jan 18, 8:25 PM
    • 3,079 Posts
    • 1,224 Thanks
    MatthewAinsworth
    Manxman -
    .
    As, from some of your other posts, you are desprate to raise a loan on a 13 yr old car and seem to be bit worried(?) about finding another job if necessary, why are you posting this rubbish?
    Not desperate, just opportunistic. Not worried, just prepared and responsible with my aggressive investment strategy

    .EDIT: You also don't seem to know what the law is or what "legality" means. I would respectively suggest that you (1) do not raise questions about subjects you seem to know little about and, (2) don't tell me you've been looking at FMotL sites, please...
    Raising questions is how you learn knowledge, I'm not ashamed to not know and ask, or have a contrarian view to test
    What is fmotl out of interest?

    . As explained above, no contract can apply in perpetuity. What happens when one of the parties die? Do the employees children have to start working for their deceased parent's employer? And if the employer died, they'd have to keep paying their employees?).
    Does anything actually say that contracts can't continue in perpetuity? An employee seems to have a right to keep the job in perpetuity, at least until death anyway
    I think some contracts do get inherited, or the debt could be levied against the estate until the estate goes bankrupt

    .What about price inflation?
    Inflation in this case will benefit the employer as a real wages cut year on year

    . (Neither I nor my wife have any anything other than trivial investments amounting to about 100 dividends pa. Are you bonkers?).
    1 - I advise you put more into a diversified passive fund at a risk level you can tolerate
    2 - do you have a pension? If it's defined contribution, it's invested
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 5th Jan 18, 9:00 PM
    • 5,214 Posts
    • 6,480 Thanks
    theoretica

    Elsien - if employer and employee had equal rights, the employee could fire the employer for breach of contract/misconduct and could make them redundant if they could prove they had an alternative income or didn't need the money. It's just making it equal for both sides
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth
    An alternative income? Such as another job? And failing that all an employee needs to do is work so badly or so little they get sacked?
    Last edited by theoretica; 05-01-2018 at 9:02 PM.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • MatthewAinsworth
    • By MatthewAinsworth 5th Jan 18, 9:08 PM
    • 3,079 Posts
    • 1,224 Thanks
    MatthewAinsworth
    Theoretica - yes job offer, or pension income, or to demonstrate that they don't need the money - however you could say that finding another job wouldn't count as the employer being redundant if you can't simply replace employees that way

    Having to sack employees doing badly will be bad for business, so maybe underperformance could be treated as theft/defaulting on the contract and in theory could be sued/prosecuted for that
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 5th Jan 18, 9:27 PM
    • 5,214 Posts
    • 6,480 Thanks
    theoretica
    Theoretica - yes job offer, or pension income, or to demonstrate that they don't need the money - however you could say that finding another job wouldn't count as the employer being redundant if you can't simply replace employees that way
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth
    But an employer can make one role redundant, and employ (or not) in another one. So to be equal, an employee could declare they no longer wanted an employer of one role and go seeking another a bit different.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • MatthewAinsworth
    • By MatthewAinsworth 5th Jan 18, 9:29 PM
    • 3,079 Posts
    • 1,224 Thanks
    MatthewAinsworth
    Indeed, they therefore couldn't take the same role elsewhere in a sideways move
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 5th Jan 18, 11:26 PM
    • 1,475 Posts
    • 1,117 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Manxman -

    Not desperate, just opportunistic. Not worried, just prepared and responsible with my aggressive investment strategy Good luck with that aggressive strategy - you may need it.



    Raising questions is how you learn knowledge, I'm not ashamed to not know and ask, or have a contrarian view to test I think asking questions in areas of ignorance is a good way of improving one's knowledge - so is taking a sceptical POV. But if you refuse to accept what others tell you, it seems a bit pointless asking the question in the first place. In your OP you seemed to be under the entirely mistaken misapprehension that something called "permanent" employment contracts exist under English and Welsh law. As other multiple posters have told you, there simply is no such thing - so wanting to "debate" their "legality" is completely futile (unless you are a Law Lord in the Supreme Court).

    What is fmotl out of interest? I thought you may have been a follower of a bunch of delusionals who believe that statute law does not apply to them (unless they've "contracted in") and that the only "real" law is common law. I was probably mistaken in your case.



    Does anything actually say that contracts can't continue in perpetuity? An employee seems to have a right to keep the job in perpetuity, at least until death anyway The law says so.

    I think some contracts do get inherited, or the debt could be levied against the estate until the estate goes bankrupt How can contracts or debts be inherited? They can't, but lawful debts can be recovered against a deceased's estate. But the debts you are discussing aren't lawful because...they aren't lawful.



    Inflation in this case will benefit the employer as a real wages cut year on year Well I've always been an employee so I'm not impressed by this argument!



    1 - I advise you put more into a diversified passive fund at a risk level you can tolerate I have no desire whatsoever to follow your ill-informed advice.

    2 - do you have a pension? If it's defined contribution, it's invested My wife and I don't have defined contribution pensions. We are entirely content with the pensions (and other assets) we have, thank you.
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth

    I still don't understand the point of your OP.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 5th Jan 18, 11:59 PM
    • 1,475 Posts
    • 1,117 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Comms - working backwards, if my fund keeps doubling every 5 years...

    5 years before 1m I need 500k
    10 years before I need 250k
    15 years before need 125k
    20 years before I need 62.5k
    25 years before I need 31.25k
    30 years before I need just less than 16k
    35 years before I need 8k - that's where I'm at

    That's if I make no extra contributions (although I will) - behold the power of compounding
    And I'm young enough

    Google Vanguard global small cap...
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth

    By "fund" I assume you mean pension fund and not savings? I've probably had too many vodkas, but the back of my fag packet suggests you are assuming around 15% pa growth excluding the effects of inflation over a period of 35 years(!) Really? I can remember at one point when I was at university inflation was running at about 26% pa and investments were not doing 15% better than that. Have you had advice from an Independent Financial Advisor about this assumption? That's what I'd want and I'd be willing to pay for it.


    You want to be a millionaire in 35 years time - but what does that mean? Calculating what size of fund might be needed to pay my and my wife's defined benefit pensions, plus the assets we own, we are not far short of that now - let alone in 35 years time when inflation plus house price inflation will probably mean at least half of the population will be "millionaires" - whatever that means...
    • WobblyDog
    • By WobblyDog 6th Jan 18, 5:34 AM
    • 465 Posts
    • 292 Thanks
    WobblyDog
    The employer should be able to sue the employee the value of the work they're nolonger providing, for as long as the contract would otherwise apply (I.e. in perpetuity).
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth
    I think this would be a bad idea, if only because it would encourage employers to assume that key staff would always be available, and were at no risk of getting sick or run over by a bus.

    Three month notice periods are quite common. If an employer can't train-up an existing member of staff to do the departing employee's job in that time, then the employer hasn't planned ahead sufficiently well.
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