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  • FIRST POST
    • Tattynatty2011
    • By Tattynatty2011 4th Jan 18, 4:54 PM
    • 8Posts
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    Tattynatty2011
    Rejection of delivery
    • #1
    • 4th Jan 18, 4:54 PM
    Rejection of delivery 4th Jan 18 at 4:54 PM
    Hi,

    I wanted to gain some feedback and possibly some solutions to my recent dilemma.

    I ordered a meat hamper from a online butchers, it arrived later than expected (only by a day) - I wasn’t in st the time of delivery so my colleague rang to inform me that the delivery had arrived and the courier advises to reject the order due to the freshness of the meat and that I had been sat in a warehouse.
    I didn’t realise it was only a day late at the time and told him to go ahead and reject the order.

    I contacted the company over Christmas but to no avail and today sent them an email that request a refund/redelivery.

    I was told they cannot help me as their terms and conditions state that I MUST NOT REJECT any delivery as sometimes the meat does arrive late (which of course, I did agree to at the time and did not read upon their website).

    I was wondering I should learn from my mistake or do I have a legal right to obtain a refund or redelivery seeing as I don’t have the items that I paid for.

    I am happy to pay extra delivery charges etc but they won’t accept that - can they do this?

    Thanks
Page 1
    • martinsurrey
    • By martinsurrey 4th Jan 18, 5:04 PM
    • 3,340 Posts
    • 4,092 Thanks
    martinsurrey
    • #2
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:04 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:04 PM
    Hi,

    I wanted to gain some feedback and possibly some solutions to my recent dilemma.

    I ordered a meat hamper from a online butchers, it arrived later than expected (only by a day) - I wasn!!!8217;t in st the time of delivery so my colleague rang to inform me that the delivery had arrived and the courier advises to reject the order due to the freshness of the meat and that I had been sat in a warehouse.
    I didn!!!8217;t realise it was only a day late at the time and told him to go ahead and reject the order.

    I contacted the company over Christmas but to no avail and today sent them an email that request a refund/redelivery.

    I was told they cannot help me as their terms and conditions state that I MUST NOT REJECT any delivery as sometimes the meat does arrive late (which of course, I did agree to at the time and did not read upon their website).

    I was wondering I should learn from my mistake or do I have a legal right to obtain a refund or redelivery seeing as I don!!!8217;t have the items that I paid for.

    I am happy to pay extra delivery charges etc but they won!!!8217;t accept that - can they do this?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Tattynatty2011
    Its a refund you'll be asking for.

    per the Consumer Rights Act 2015 the items must be fit for purpose, and meat that has sat in an unrefrigerated warehouse for over 24 hours is not.

    The terms and conditions cannot overrule this statutory right.

    Reply to them that as you had been advised by the delivery firm that the goods had not been stored in a controlled temperature environment for an extended period of time that you rejected the good as they were not fit for purpose (human consumption) and you require a full refund off all charges including delivery, as required by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and that their terms and conditions cannot override this statutory right.
    • Tattynatty2011
    • By Tattynatty2011 4th Jan 18, 5:07 PM
    • 8 Posts
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    Tattynatty2011
    • #3
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:07 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:07 PM
    Thank you SO much!

    I shall give that a go and see where I end up!

    I have a feeling they will not accept this, however I will keep you updated!
    • visidigi
    • By visidigi 4th Jan 18, 5:14 PM
    • 5,683 Posts
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    visidigi
    • #4
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:14 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:14 PM
    meat that has sat in an unrefrigerated warehouse for over 24 hours is not.
    Originally posted by martinsurrey
    Just to clarify it will ship with chill/cool packs in the box as refrigeration/chilling of the contents. Its not expected to be 100% refrigerated transportation with the majority of these online butcher services.

    If the shipper is saying there was sufficient cooling to cover the additional day transit (which is likely given the you should never reject term) then claiming against this aspect is likely to prove unsuccessful.
    • martinsurrey
    • By martinsurrey 4th Jan 18, 5:22 PM
    • 3,340 Posts
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    martinsurrey
    • #5
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:22 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:22 PM
    Just to clarify it will ship with chill/cool packs in the box as refrigeration/chilling of the contents. Its not expected to be 100% refrigerated transportation with the majority of these online butcher services.

    If the shipper is saying there was sufficient cooling to cover the additional day transit (which is likely given the you should never reject term) then claiming against this aspect is likely to prove unsuccessful.
    Originally posted by visidigi
    As the seller has no idea how the transport company stores items in its warehouse, was it in an office type environment or outside in the sun?, they CANNOT put a blanket "we put enough cool packs in to last x hours".

    The OP was advised by the delivery firm to reject, which they did, the delivery firm knows how the goods were handled.

    As the meat could then have got cold again in the back of the van, there is no way the OP could be CERTAIN that the meat was not going to cause serious harm, and thats a pretty important point on food stuff to be fit for purpose.

    this is a clear cut case imo.
    • visidigi
    • By visidigi 4th Jan 18, 5:26 PM
    • 5,683 Posts
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    visidigi
    • #6
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:26 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:26 PM
    As the seller has no idea how the transport company stores items in its warehouse, was it in an office type environment or outside in the sun?, they CANNOT put a blanket "we put enough cool packs in to last x hours".

    The OP was advised by the delivery firm to reject, which they did.

    As the meat could then have got cold again in the back of the van, there is no way the OP could be CERTAIN that the meat was not going to cause serious harm, and thats a pretty important point on food stuff to be fit for purpose.

    this is a clear cut case imo.
    Originally posted by martinsurrey
    I think you need to read up about ambient temperature cold-chain deliveries - and some van driver is not qualified to determine if the product is perished (and given the van driver is likely paid/measured on the delivery success rate its highly unlikely having found someone to sign they would then say give it back!)

    There is nothing clear cut about this case (apart from hopefully the way the meat inside was cut )

    Edit : adding a link to a youtube video which shows how these things are travelling with UK networks.
    Last edited by visidigi; 04-01-2018 at 5:31 PM.
    • martinsurrey
    • By martinsurrey 4th Jan 18, 5:37 PM
    • 3,340 Posts
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    martinsurrey
    • #7
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:37 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:37 PM
    I think you need to read up about ambient temperature cold-chain deliveries - and some van driver is not qualified to determine if the product is perished (and given the van driver is likely paid/measured on the delivery success rate its highly unlikely having from someone to sign they would then ask the driver to take it back!)

    There is nothing clear cut about this case (apart from hopefully the way the meat inside was cut )
    Originally posted by visidigi
    And I think you need to go to a warehouse and stand in the corner that gets the blast from the heating, this doesn't sound like a fancy supply chain, its a normal courier carrying a polystyrene box.

    Who IS qualified to determine if the food was perished? is the consumer expected to run some lab tests to check for bacteria load?

    Does the seller know if in the 48hours they didn't control the package that it wasn't subject to 35 degree head for 24 of those hours?

    In fact the delivery driver IS best placed to give advice, as hes the only person with any idea on how it was stored.
    • visidigi
    • By visidigi 4th Jan 18, 5:52 PM
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    visidigi
    • #8
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:52 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:52 PM
    And I think you need to go to a warehouse and stand in the corner that gets the blast from the heating, this doesn't sound like a fancy supply chain, its a normal courier carrying a polystyrene box.

    Who IS qualified to determine if the food was perished? is the consumer expected to run some lab tests to check for bacteria load?

    Does the seller know if in the 48hours they didn't control the package that it wasn't subject to 35 degree head for 24 of those hours?

    In fact the delivery driver IS best placed to give advice, as hes the only person with any idea on how it was stored.
    Originally posted by martinsurrey
    Thanks for the suggestion, if only I had thought of that - almost feels like I have never worked in the industry for a minute there

    The driver has ZERO idea what happened to that box from pickup to the depot from which they are dispatched (usually well within 20 miles of the destination address). The driver is the least qualified to answer anything about this shipment.

    As per the process, the shipper packs the goods with a suitable level of contingency, everything chill packed has to have contingency and as long as its delivered within the time frame of the shippers definition of suitable temperature range then all should be fine.

    Therefore the shipper is qualified to say if the goods are in a perished condition. Not some van driver.
    • martinsurrey
    • By martinsurrey 4th Jan 18, 6:25 PM
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    martinsurrey
    • #9
    • 4th Jan 18, 6:25 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Jan 18, 6:25 PM
    in the time frame of the shippers definition of suitable temperature range then all should be fine.

    Therefore the shipper is qualified to say if the goods are in a perished condition. Not some van driver.
    Originally posted by visidigi
    and who knows if the package has been kept in the sutible temperature range?

    Not the shipper, he waved it off 36-48 hours ago!

    so from the 3 people involved, Seller - no idea, OP - No idea, Driver - very slightly more than no idea.

    In any event, the delivery driver is an agent of the shipper, so the sellers agent TOLD the OP to reject.

    right or wrong, thats an issue between the seller and their delivery company, not the OP.

    OP acted on the advise of the sellers agent, simple case.
    • visidigi
    • By visidigi 4th Jan 18, 6:29 PM
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    visidigi
    and who knows if the package has been kept in the sutible temperature range?

    Not the shipper, he waved it off 36-48 hours ago!

    so from the 3 people involved, Seller - no idea, OP - No idea, Driver - very slightly more than no idea.

    In any event, the delivery driver is an agent of the shipper, so the sellers agent TOLD the OP to reject.

    right or wrong, thats an issue between the seller and their delivery company, not the OP.

    OP acted on the advise of the sellers agent, simple case.
    Originally posted by martinsurrey
    Sheesh. The box also contains temperature deviance devices - think like water damage tabs in mobiles phones.

    Anything else? Or are the 1000s of businesses in the UK doing this with national and international carriers all risking public heath and relying on a driver...

    The driver is contracted to deliver - they are not an agent. The courier has no rights whatsoever to instruct the recipient to reject the delivery.
    • Tattynatty2011
    • By Tattynatty2011 4th Jan 18, 7:56 PM
    • 8 Posts
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    Tattynatty2011
    This is the reply that I have just received when I questioned if I would receive a refund or reattempt at delivery.

    “Unfortunately, Parcel Force are not authorised to advise you to refuse your delivery. I suggest that you make contact with the depot that delivered your goods (and they should be able to advise who your delivery person was) and you should attempt to seek compensation from Parcel Force, we will be unable to compensate you or send your new order. When you placed your order you will have ticked the box that confirms you are happy with our terms and conditions.
    I'm sorry, but there really is nothing more I can do to help, especially as it is now more than 2 weeks since you refused the parcel”


    I replied: (when I say ‘I’ I mean ‘we’ given that most of the wording is from your replies!)

    ‘Many thanks for your reply.
    I note that you mention it has been two weeks since I rejected the order, just to clarify I made contact on the 29th December Via Instagram but to no avail until this evening when I received a reply stating that they had just noticed my message.
    Secondly, as usual protocol for refunds are typically 10-14 days I assumed I would receive a refund within the time frame - when I did not,I sent you another email to chase this.

    I had no idea how the transport company stores items in its warehouse, was it in an office type environment or outside in the sun?,
    Joe’s cannot put a blanket "we put enough cool packs in to last x hours".

    I advised by the delivery firm to reject, which I did, the delivery firm knows how the goods were handled.

    As the meat could then have got cold again in the back of the van, there is no way that I could be CERTAIN that the meat was not going to cause serious harm, and thats a pretty important point on food stuff to be fit for purpose.

    The driver, right or wrong he may be, this is an issue between the seller (you) and the courier (ParcelForce)

    This is a clear cut refund case, and whilst I appreciate your T&C’s -I am confident my statutory consumer rights over perishable goods supersede’s this.


    I am also confident that you have received the goods back after the rejection in the same condition it was dispatched, therefore I am still eligible for a full refund inclusive of delivery as you as a company are not at a loss of product.

    If you unable to resolve this I shall seek legal advice and take this further as a statutory right under the Consumer Rights act 2015.

    I look forward to receiving my refund and should you need any further information to support the transaction please feel free to drop me a message & I will be happy to assist’
    • visidigi
    • By visidigi 4th Jan 18, 8:52 PM
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    visidigi
    This is the reply that I have just received when I questioned if I would receive a refund or reattempt at delivery.

    !!!8220;Unfortunately, Parcel Force are not authorised to advise you to refuse your delivery. I suggest that you make contact with the depot that delivered your goods (and they should be able to advise who your delivery person was) and you should attempt to seek compensation from Parcel Force, we will be unable to compensate you or send your new order. When you placed your order you will have ticked the box that confirms you are happy with our terms and conditions.
    I'm sorry, but there really is nothing more I can do to help, especially as it is now more than 2 weeks since you refused the parcel!!!8221;


    I replied: (when I say !!!8216;I!!!8217; I mean !!!8216;we!!!8217; given that most of the wording is from your replies!)

    !!!8216;Many thanks for your reply.
    I note that you mention it has been two weeks since I rejected the order, just to clarify I made contact on the 29th December Via Instagram but to no avail until this evening when I received a reply stating that they had just noticed my message.
    Secondly, as usual protocol for refunds are typically 10-14 days I assumed I would receive a refund within the time frame - when I did not,I sent you another email to chase this.

    I had no idea how the transport company stores items in its warehouse, was it in an office type environment or outside in the sun?,
    Joe!!!8217;s cannot put a blanket "we put enough cool packs in to last x hours".

    I advised by the delivery firm to reject, which I did, the delivery firm knows how the goods were handled.

    As the meat could then have got cold again in the back of the van, there is no way that I could be CERTAIN that the meat was not going to cause serious harm, and thats a pretty important point on food stuff to be fit for purpose.

    The driver, right or wrong he may be, this is an issue between the seller (you) and the courier (ParcelForce)

    This is a clear cut refund case, and whilst I appreciate your T&C!!!8217;s -I am confident my statutory consumer rights over perishable goods supersede!!!8217;s this.


    I am also confident that you have received the goods back after the rejection in the same condition it was dispatched, therefore I am still eligible for a full refund inclusive of delivery as you as a company are not at a loss of product.

    If you unable to resolve this I shall seek legal advice and take this further as a statutory right under the Consumer Rights act 2015.

    I look forward to receiving my refund and should you need any further information to support the transaction please feel free to drop me a message & I will be happy to assist!!!8217;
    Originally posted by Tattynatty2011
    Oh my days. Aside from all the other inaccuracies my absolute favourite has to be...

    I am also confident that you have received the goods back after the rejection in the same condition it was dispatched, therefore I am still eligible for a full refund inclusive of delivery as you as a company are not at a loss of product.
    • You ordered perishable goods!
    • They paid the courier to ship it.
    • They will have to pay the courier for the return.
    • The goods inside will have perished and cannot be sold as they will have exceeded the contingency (which is why the terms and conditions explicitly state not to refuse deliveries).
    • They are at a loss, probably far exceeding the profit margin in your order by a factor of at least 2.

    Ill be surprised if they even reply to you, if they do I fear you wont like what they will say either...
    • Tattynatty2011
    • By Tattynatty2011 4th Jan 18, 9:30 PM
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    Tattynatty2011
    I have no idea how to quote on these forums, however in response to the above reply;

    According to their statement, their parcels are !!!8216;fresh!!!8217; for upto 3 days, so given that they have received them back, no they would not have lost out on perishable items.

    I too am at a loss.

    Let me ask you a question, would you honestly accept an item of !!!8216;fresh!!!8217; meat from your butcher if the delivery man walked in with your order and pulled you to one side and Said !!!8216;I wouldn!!!8217;t order if I was you, this delivery on meats has been stored in an warehouse for longer than expected!!!8217;

    Honestly, would you?



    Secondly, I have offered to pay for a replacement on delivery costs as per my first post and it was ME that paid the delivery costs; not them.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 4th Jan 18, 9:38 PM
    • 12,447 Posts
    • 9,750 Thanks
    unholyangel
    If this is the website, their terms and conditions are absolutely shocking and definitely do not comply with the law. I was planning on highlighting the parts that are incorrect but it appears there is far too many of them.

    I'd be willing to bet the T&C's haven't been written or checked by a solicitor - I can't see a solicitor including a choice of law clause but not including a jurisdiction clause.

    Plus even if a solicitor wouldn't necessarily know it breached consumer protection legislation, they should know it is entirely contrary to the ordinary position of the law and therefore their terms are effectively fantasy invented by Joe's.


    Also to note that while items that will deteriorate or expire rapidly are exempt from the right to cancel, they are not exempt from the other provisions of the consumer contract regulations and as such, I'd advise the OP to check what information they should have provided and then make sure they actually provided it.


    I mean they don't even have lorne steak slice. What kind of butcher doesn't do square sausage? (okay that last parts a joke).
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Tattynatty2011
    • By Tattynatty2011 4th Jan 18, 9:40 PM
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    Tattynatty2011
    Your message makes me feel a little better - thankyou!

    Unfortunately I don’t even remember ‘ticking’ the T&C’s box but more than likely I would have done to complete the order - rookie mistake I know.

    It seems there are various opinions on this, I shall keep you updated!
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 4th Jan 18, 9:41 PM
    • 12,447 Posts
    • 9,750 Thanks
    unholyangel
    I have no idea how to quote on these forums, however in response to the above reply;
    Originally posted by Tattynatty2011
    You might need to log in but once you do, there should be buttons under each post giving you the ability to quote or multiquote. If you click the quote button, it will take you straight to reply screen quoting that 1 post. If you do multiquote, you can select up to 3 posts (i think its 3 anyway) and then once you click the reply button, it will take you to the reply screen and have those 1-3 posts quoted.


    If that makes sense/helps.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • visidigi
    • By visidigi 4th Jan 18, 9:47 PM
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    • 3,562 Thanks
    visidigi
    According to their statement, their parcels are !!!8216;fresh!!!8217; for upto 3 days, so given that they have received them back, no they would not have lost out on perishable items.
    Originally posted by Tattynatty2011
    The timelines of your posts aren't clear - are you saying you know the date they got the package back and was it within 3 days of the original dispatch?

    Its 3 days fresh from dispatch, sent on a next day delivery that means its contingency is 48 hours - your package was 24hrs late, therefore still within contingency.


    Let me ask you a question, would you honestly accept an item of !!!8216;fresh!!!8217; meat from your butcher if the delivery man walked in with your order and pulled you to one side and Said !!!8216;I wouldn!!!8217;t order if I was you, this delivery on meats has been stored in an warehouse for longer than expected!!!8217;

    Honestly, would you?
    Originally posted by Tattynatty2011
    I would, because I ordered it, I know what I asked to have delivered and would check that it contained what I ordered in the state I expected it. I wouldn't point blank refuse it - unless it shows visual damage - if there is none and its opened by me and its spoiled (which the internal packaging would indicate) then I would complain to the retailer.

    I wouldn't trust a drivers opinion who's had the package for a few hours since 6am or something that day. They are a courier - end of.

    Secondly, I have offered to pay for a replacement on delivery costs as per my first post and it was ME that paid the delivery costs; not them.
    Originally posted by Tattynatty2011
    You paid the retailer the fee they requested - the sender actually paid the delivery charge on their Parcelforce account, which makes the contract between the shipper and the carrier - you did not pay the actual charged delivery costs - you paid the shipper rate.

    You paying for replacement delivery costs doesn't change the fact the retailer is out of pocket!
    • Money maker
    • By Money maker 4th Jan 18, 9:49 PM
    • 5,015 Posts
    • 11,399 Thanks
    Money maker
    If your goods have not arrived by 1pm on your preferred delivery day, YOU MUST contact us by email at joe@joessausages.co.uk and inform us that your parcel is late. We will endeavour to track it for you. Failure to advise us on the day your parcel was due to be delivered means that we cannot be held liable for the failed delivery and you will not be compensated for the loss of your goods. We will always endeavour to help track your parcel but the courier must have chance to track it and rectify any delivery mistakes.


    Did you do this OP?
    Please do not quote spam as this enables it to 'live on' once the spam post is removed.

    If you quote me, don't forget the capital 'M'

    Declutterers of the world - unite!
    • Tigsteroonie
    • By Tigsteroonie 4th Jan 18, 9:50 PM
    • 22,753 Posts
    • 57,097 Thanks
    Tigsteroonie
    So hang on ...

    You must either be at your specified delivery address to take receipt of your parcel or you must provide special delivery instructions ... if you are concerned that there is not a safe place then please provide a delivery address where someone will be in to accept the delivery.
    Yet

    By placing your order on a preferred delivery day, you accept that your order may under exceptional circumstances not arrive on the agreed day; it is rare that your order will be delayed, however it does occasionally happen. You must accept delivery of your goods. Your order will remain fresh for up to 48 hours. Under no circumstances will you be compensated if your order is not delivered on your !!!8216;preferred delivery day!!!8217;.
    So having taken one day off work to ensure you are there to accept delivery, if they couldn't deliver due to 'exceptional circumstances' you then have to take the next day off work too?

    A company to avoid if ever I saw one.
    Mrs Marleyboy

    MSE: many of the benefits of a helpful family, without disadvantages like having to compete for the tv remote

    Proud Parents to an Au-some son
    • Money maker
    • By Money maker 4th Jan 18, 9:52 PM
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    • 11,399 Thanks
    Money maker
    Looks like theyve changed to T&C's to suit themselves too as they say 'If an item is held at the Post Office awaiting collection and it is not subsequently collected, or if a delivery is refused and then returned to us we will NOT be liable for a refund, even if a member of Parcel Force tells you otherwise.'


    You could have really done with a screenshot of them before your complaint. Is there any way (google cache etc) that the T&C's can be checked before amended?
    Please do not quote spam as this enables it to 'live on' once the spam post is removed.

    If you quote me, don't forget the capital 'M'

    Declutterers of the world - unite!
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