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  • FIRST POST
    • eshroom
    • By eshroom 4th Jan 18, 4:01 PM
    • 121Posts
    • 16Thanks
    eshroom
    PayPal currency conversion - no choice
    • #1
    • 4th Jan 18, 4:01 PM
    PayPal currency conversion - no choice 4th Jan 18 at 4:01 PM
    I recently checked out as a "guest" on eBay (no PayPal account, just using credit card) for an item priced in USD.

    I clicked on the terms and it said I would be given the option of what currency to be charged in if my home currency was different to the currency of the seller.

    I was not given a choice, only the total in USD was displayed.

    After the sale I got an alert from Starling to say I had been charged in GBP.

    I phoned PayPal and after a few months of emails back and forth and a couple of calls I have got no where. They refunded their currency mark-up and said they would refer to their technical team to ensure this doesn't happen in the future.

    But I have tested this (got as far as checkout) and can see nothing has changed, not their terms nor their checkout process.

    I'm surprised a company of this size has this sort of discrepancy between their terms and their practice. If you checkout as guest, you will be charged in the currency of your card, regardless of the buying currency, at a rate that you will not be informed of until you receive your receipt by email.

    This does not apply to check-out for PayPal account holders, where you are given a choice of which currency to pay in.

    Not only is this against their terms, but surely it is against the law to charge you in a different currency than the one displayed without showing you the exchange rate they are offering (and therefore the final amount you will pay)?

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this? And how do I go about reporting this (is there any point reporting this)?
Page 1
    • Dox
    • By Dox 4th Jan 18, 5:08 PM
    • 662 Posts
    • 455 Thanks
    Dox
    • #2
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:08 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Jan 18, 5:08 PM
    If you want to use this facility, why not open a Paypal account? I appreciate this doesn't answer the question you've asked which may be annoying, but on the other hand it might be a good way to stop banging your head on a brick wall - which is where you are surely heading if you try to take on Paypal.
    • eshroom
    • By eshroom 5th Jan 18, 9:36 AM
    • 121 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    eshroom
    • #3
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:36 AM
    • #3
    • 5th Jan 18, 9:36 AM
    I do have a PayPal account, I was under the impression PayPal used purely as a payment processor allowed you full credit card protection, whereas when used as via a PayPal account the card issuer could refer you to PayPal for any complaint. As I was buying a high value item from abroad I wanted extra protection.

    It's not about this transaction, but more the fact that I dislike large companies adding hidden charges, possible illegally. In this case the charge is completely hidden until after the transaction.

    Another example I found is airlines (e.g. Ryanair) allowing you to select Visa Credit and pay by debit card, still charging you a credit card fee. Basically making people pay for a mistake when their payments system recognises card types (hence the won't accept a credit card if you choose debit). I did this once and Ryanair eventually refunded after I complained.
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 5th Jan 18, 11:09 AM
    • 12,221 Posts
    • 8,255 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    • #4
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:09 AM
    • #4
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:09 AM
    I do have a PayPal account, I was under the impression PayPal used purely as a payment processor allowed you full credit card protection, whereas when used as via a PayPal account the card issuer could refer you to PayPal for any complaint. As I was buying a high value item from abroad I wanted extra protection.

    .
    Originally posted by eshroom
    Most card companies will cite any part of a Paypal transaction (guest or logged in) as being a third party and therefore not covered by them. You might be lucky and convince them otherwise but I certainly would say there is no difference in a guest or logged in transaction. You may actually find it more difficult as a guest as you cannot open the case online but have to do it via the phone.

    Different if your merchant uses Paypal as a merchant processor.
    • eshroom
    • By eshroom 5th Jan 18, 3:39 PM
    • 121 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    eshroom
    • #5
    • 5th Jan 18, 3:39 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Jan 18, 3:39 PM
    Most card companies will cite any part of a Paypal transaction (guest or logged in) as being a third party and therefore not covered by them. You might be lucky and convince them otherwise but I certainly would say there is no difference in a guest or logged in transaction. You may actually find it more difficult as a guest as you cannot open the case online but have to do it via the phone.

    Different if your merchant uses Paypal as a merchant processor.
    Originally posted by theonlywayisup
    I appreciate examples are few and far between, but the general consensus I have seen online is if payment are made direct and Paypal is just used as a payments processor then section 75 protection applies. eBay give you the option of logging in and paying with PayPal or paying direct on eBay with PayPal utilised as the payments processor - in which case you input your card details as you would with any online payment.

    Paypal internally refer to this as a "Guest transaction" - as indeed they refer to any transaction across the web that is not done by logging into a PayPal account.
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 5th Jan 18, 5:52 PM
    • 12,221 Posts
    • 8,255 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    • #6
    • 5th Jan 18, 5:52 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Jan 18, 5:52 PM
    I appreciate examples are few and far between, but the general consensus I have seen online is if payment are made direct and Paypal is just used as a payments processor then section 75 protection applies. eBay give you the option of logging in and paying with PayPal or paying direct on eBay with PayPal utilised as the payments processor - in which case you input your card details as you would with any online payment.

    Paypal internally refer to this as a "Guest transaction" - as indeed they refer to any transaction across the web that is not done by logging into a PayPal account.
    Originally posted by eshroom
    You seem to have missed what I said. Paypal guest payments and PayPal logged in payments are deemed the same by credit card companies. Most will try to wriggle out of any part in the transaction citing Paypal as the processor (regardless of whether you log in or not).

    Paypal can be a merchant payment processor (is that where your confusion lies) where the seller also uses Paypal to process their own card transactions. These transactions are deemed "normal" by the card company - although there have recently been examples on this very board where the cardholder has been up against a "computer says no" attitude.
    • Lisbon
    • By Lisbon 5th Jan 18, 11:38 PM
    • 347 Posts
    • 319 Thanks
    Lisbon
    • #7
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:38 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:38 PM
    If you've not read this, it might be useful to do so: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/PayPal-Section75
    • eshroom
    • By eshroom 6th Jan 18, 1:21 AM
    • 121 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    eshroom
    • #8
    • 6th Jan 18, 1:21 AM
    • #8
    • 6th Jan 18, 1:21 AM
    You seem to have missed what I said. Paypal guest payments and PayPal logged in payments are deemed the same by credit card companies. Most will try to wriggle out of any part in the transaction citing Paypal as the processor (regardless of whether you log in or not).

    Paypal can be a merchant payment processor (is that where your confusion lies) where the seller also uses Paypal to process their own card transactions. These transactions are deemed "normal" by the card company - although there have recently been examples on this very board where the cardholder has been up against a "computer says no" attitude.
    Originally posted by theonlywayisup
    Thanks. Understood your post perfectly. My point is that eBay appears to utilise PayPal a !!!8220;merchant acquiring service!!!8221; (payment processor) when a buyer does not log in, and as Lisbon!!!8217;s linked article points out, in that case purchases would be covered under section 75. Can you explain why you think this is not the case? My understanding is that wherever you make a purchase processed by PayPal without using an account, PayPal is always acting as the !!!8220;merchant acquiring service!!!8221;.

    Keeping on topic - is it legal for PayPal to process payment in a currency other than the one stated on the checkout page without displaying their (bad) exchange rate?
    Last edited by eshroom; 06-01-2018 at 1:25 AM.
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 6th Jan 18, 7:25 AM
    • 12,221 Posts
    • 8,255 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 7:25 AM
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 7:25 AM
    Thanks. Understood your post perfectly. My point is that eBay appears to utilise PayPal a !!!8220;merchant acquiring service!!!8221; (payment processor) when a buyer does not log in, and as Lisbon!!!8217;s linked article points out, in that case purchases would be covered under section 75. Can you explain why you think this is not the case? My understanding is that wherever you make a purchase processed by PayPal without using an account, PayPal is always acting as the !!!8220;merchant acquiring service!!!8221;.
    Originally posted by eshroom
    Have a read here https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/PayPal-Section75

    even if you!!!8217;re just putting your credit card details into PayPal to pay, it counts as an agency, the path is broken, therefore you don!!!8217;t have Section 75 protection.
    The reference to the merchant acquiring service is like I explained before.

    I have a business and I use Worldpay to process my merchant services, I also use Paypal. The customer doesn't see who I use and it isn't something they chose. In both instances they will be covered by their usual credit card section75 as there is no break in the chain. They are passing the money to me and I am using Worldpay or Paypal to process it for me. They aren't using it to send the money to me.

    However there are threads on here where people have managed to convince a card provider to act in a normal Paypal payment method (either logged in or as a guest). I have managed it myself, albeit some years ago.

    Keeping on topic - is it legal for PayPal to process payment in a currency other than the one stated on the checkout page without displaying their (bad) exchange rate?
    Originally posted by eshroom
    Their fees are documented https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#08 section 8 covers currency conversions and fees.

    Where your payment is funded by a Debit or Credit Card and involves a currency conversion, by entering into this agreement you consent to and authorise PayPal to convert the currency in place of your Credit or Debit card issuer.
    I have dual currency so I'm not sure what screen you see when you are converting so I can't help there.
    Last edited by theonlywayisup; 06-01-2018 at 7:33 AM.
    • eshroom
    • By eshroom 6th Jan 18, 11:16 AM
    • 121 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    eshroom
    Ok. I understand. So how is one meant to distinguish between PayPal being used as a merchant acquiring service or not?

    When checking out via credit/debit card on eBay, no PayPal logo is shown and details are entered directly on eBay.

    Regarding paypal terms you quoted - 8.2 !!!8220;Where a currency conversion is offered by PayPal at the point of sale you will be shown the exchange rate that will be applied to the transaction before you proceed with authorising the payment transaction. By proceeding with your authorisation of the payment transaction you are agreeing to the currency conversion on the basis of the exchange rate.!!!8220;

    So the guest checkout in foreign currency scenario goes against their own terms (something I pointed out to them and they are !!!8220;investigating!!!8221;). The questions is even if it didn!!!8217;t would it be legal to charge someone in a different currency than that displayed without showing them how much they will be charged and in what currency?
    Last edited by eshroom; 06-01-2018 at 11:40 AM.
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 6th Jan 18, 7:18 PM
    • 12,221 Posts
    • 8,255 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    Ok. I understand. So how is one meant to distinguish between PayPal being used as a merchant acquiring service or not?
    Originally posted by eshroom
    The easiest way to explain it is to say (you don't need to!) if you are using Paypal to send money - logged in or as a guest, then it's likely to prevent a S75 claim.

    If you pay ABC or XYZ for a widget and you give them your card - online or in person, then you will be covered even if they use Paypal as a payment processor.

    Regarding paypal terms you quoted - 8.2 “Where a currency conversion is offered by PayPal at the point of sale you will be shown the exchange rate that will be applied to the transaction before you proceed with authorising the payment transaction. By proceeding with your authorisation of the payment transaction you are agreeing to the currency conversion on the basis of the exchange rate.“

    So the guest checkout in foreign currency scenario goes against their own terms (something I pointed out to them and they are “investigating”). The questions is even if it didn’t would it be legal to charge someone in a different currency than that displayed without showing them how much they will be charged and in what currency?
    Originally posted by eshroom
    As I say I use dual currency so can't see what you see. Hopefully someone else will have had a similar experience to you and can comment.
    • Dox
    • By Dox 6th Jan 18, 11:43 PM
    • 662 Posts
    • 455 Thanks
    Dox
    If you still want to complain, see https://www.resolver.co.uk/companies/paypal-complaints
    • eshroom
    • By eshroom 7th Jan 18, 10:36 AM
    • 121 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    eshroom
    Thanks for the replies. Will try once more through resolver.
    • eshroom
    • By eshroom 15th Jan 18, 5:27 PM
    • 121 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    eshroom
    Spoke to Financial Ombudsman who have now taken this on as Paypal appear to contradict their own terms.

    @theonlywayisup - You seem very sure in what you are saying relating to s.75 and eBay purchases for non-Paypal account holders. I still don't know why you think your use of Paypal as a payment processor is different to eBay's use of Paypal as a payments processor (for non-Paypal account holders). You speak of the chain being broken, but if you don't possess an account, the chain is not broken, payment goes directly from your card to the seller.

    The terms you sign up to even indicated that you may have more rights from your card issuer if you checkout without using a paypal account. https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/privacywax-full
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 15th Jan 18, 6:00 PM
    • 12,221 Posts
    • 8,255 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    Spoke to Financial Ombudsman who have now taken this on as Paypal appear to contradict their own terms.

    @theonlywayisup - You seem very sure in what you are saying relating to s.75 and eBay purchases for non-Paypal account holders. I still don't know why you think your use of Paypal as a payment processor is different to eBay's use of Paypal as a payments processor (for non-Paypal account holders). You speak of the chain being broken, but if you don't possess an account, the chain is not broken, payment goes directly from your card to the seller.

    The terms you sign up to even indicated that you may have more rights from your card issuer if you checkout without using a paypal account. https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/privacywax-full
    Originally posted by eshroom

    I still don't think you understand the merchant and user side of Paypal. A user can have an account or be a guest. A merchant is the person collecting the funds. You were never a merchant. You never used the service via a merchant. You were always letting Paypal take funds from your card for them to process. Perhaps if you were both merchant and user you might understand?

    You can take a horse to water and all that....

    Good luck with the claim, as I said, some users have managed to convince card companies to act. But re reading, your case with the Ombudsman appears to be in relation to the charges rather than a chargeback/S75 claim though.
    Last edited by theonlywayisup; 15-01-2018 at 6:09 PM.
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 15th Jan 18, 6:28 PM
    • 1,440 Posts
    • 1,131 Thanks
    bxboards
    If when you make a credit card payment and the payment screen says 'you do not need a Paypal account' to use, but Paypal processes the payment, the s.75 link is not broken. This is no different to how other payment processor work.

    If you pay with a credit card via a Paypal account, then the s.75 link is broken.
    • eshroom
    • By eshroom 16th Jan 18, 1:36 PM
    • 121 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    eshroom
    If when you make a credit card payment and the payment screen says 'you do not need a Paypal account' to use, but Paypal processes the payment, the s.75 link is not broken. This is no different to how other payment processor work.

    If you pay with a credit card via a Paypal account, then the s.75 link is broken.
    Originally posted by bxboards
    Thank you for confirming, this is what I thought.

    I'll continue to make eBay purchases and checkout directly on eBay via credit card (and not using my PayPal account) so I can benefit from s.75 protection (I understand card issuers may still try to fight it regardless).

    Hopefully will never need the protection anyway.
    Last edited by eshroom; 16-01-2018 at 1:39 PM.
    • stbutler
    • By stbutler 8th May 18, 12:37 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    stbutler
    I used to pay by logging in to Paypal and choosing to pay by card using the foreign currency, but then that option was removed.


    So I started paying as a guest, like the original poster, but today I found that the money grabbing ********s at PayPal had removed the option to pay with the foreign currency that way too.


    Searching the web again I found something on another forum with a link to allow you to set your default conversion options in paypal for cards
    https :// community.monzo.com/t/ebay-paypal-avoiding-dcc-on-forex-payments/29272


    Now, I know that this won't satisfy the original poster's wish to keep s75 rights, but it might be useful to others that just want to use their card's conversion rate instead of paypal's.
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