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  • FIRST POST
    • marcosscriven
    • By marcosscriven 3rd Jan 18, 4:21 PM
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    marcosscriven
    Amex chargeback refused
    • #1
    • 3rd Jan 18, 4:21 PM
    Amex chargeback refused 3rd Jan 18 at 4:21 PM
    I purchased an 13" ereader from a German online retailer. However, it's not as described, and generally very poor quality.

    The retailer is willing to accept a return, but not the cost of postage (which is significant). I purchased with Amex, thinking that would give me excellent protection in this case.

    However, when I called Amex just now they said I would have to provide an independent expert's analysis that the ereader is not as described, and that the cost of that would not be refundable.

    Is there anything I can do here?
Page 1
    • meer53
    • By meer53 3rd Jan 18, 4:38 PM
    • 9,193 Posts
    • 13,331 Thanks
    meer53
    • #2
    • 3rd Jan 18, 4:38 PM
    • #2
    • 3rd Jan 18, 4:38 PM
    You will have to provide the report if you want a refund.
    • marcosscriven
    • By marcosscriven 3rd Jan 18, 4:44 PM
    • 77 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    marcosscriven
    • #3
    • 3rd Jan 18, 4:44 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Jan 18, 4:44 PM
    That sounds prohibitively costly to me - and thus would obviate all but the most expensive refunds.

    Is it correct to say then, that Amex doesn't actually provide any protection here, when I have to foot the cost of an independent expert, which would be more than the cost I'm claiming.
    • dj1471
    • By dj1471 3rd Jan 18, 8:24 PM
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    dj1471
    • #4
    • 3rd Jan 18, 8:24 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Jan 18, 8:24 PM
    Presumably Amex don't agree that it's clearly not as described. In what way was it misdescribed?

    German consumer legislation will be broadly similar to ours, so I'd expect the retailer to be liable for the return postage if they're in breach of contract. But it's up to you to demonstrate that this is the case.
    • camelot1971
    • By camelot1971 4th Jan 18, 10:15 AM
    • 825 Posts
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    camelot1971
    • #5
    • 4th Jan 18, 10:15 AM
    • #5
    • 4th Jan 18, 10:15 AM
    You should have done your research before buying something from outside the UK. It's perfectly reasonable for the store to expect you to pay for the return - it's not faulty, you just aren't happy with it.

    Postage back to Germany shouldn't be too prohibitive - I can't imagine it weighs a great deal.
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 4th Jan 18, 10:40 AM
    • 6,809 Posts
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    chattychappy
    • #6
    • 4th Jan 18, 10:40 AM
    • #6
    • 4th Jan 18, 10:40 AM
    You don't say the price you paid or whether it was an American Express Chargecard or Credit Card.

    IF it was a credit card AND the value was over £100, then you have S75 protection which makes the CC jointly liable with the retailer. In this case ultimately you can sue American Express. Demanding an expert's report is a standard response, but whether it is appropriate or not depends on the circumstances. For example, if by "not as described", the retailer said it is blue when really it is red, a print out of the order (with description) and a photo of the unit itself should be sufficient evidence. If the CC refused to entertain such a claim, ultimately you could go to court and a judge would no doubt find in your favour. Trust me, it would settle before then!

    But stuff like "generally very poor quality" is rather subjective and a neutral opinion is needed.

    IF you paid by a chargecard, OR the item was less than £100, then S75 doesn't apply and chargeback is your only hope. You have no direct legal right to demand a chargeback, though the FOS has said it would be unfair for banks not to use chargeback where available in appropriate cases to assist a cardholder. So in this case, you are a bit more in the hands of Amex. If you can supply solid evidence other than via an expert opinion, then I suggest you try and you can always go to the FOS if they still refuse. Else I'm afraid you're stuck.

    Given the retailer has agreed to accept a return, perhaps you should just write off the postage.


    You should have done your research before buying something from outside the UK. It's perfectly reasonable for the store to expect you to pay for the return - it's not faulty, you just aren't happy with it.
    Originally posted by camelot1971
    I think that's a bit harsh. There is a limit to how much research you can do, and if indeed the goods are not as described, then the OP shouldn't be out of pocket through the cost of the return postage. It's just the lack of a good remedy and the amounts involved make it difficult to pursue.
    • camelot1971
    • By camelot1971 4th Jan 18, 4:16 PM
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    camelot1971
    • #7
    • 4th Jan 18, 4:16 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Jan 18, 4:16 PM
    I think that's a bit harsh. There is a limit to how much research you can do, and if indeed the goods are not as described, then the OP shouldn't be out of pocket through the cost of the return postage. It's just the lack of a good remedy and the amounts involved make it difficult to pursue.
    Originally posted by chattychappy
    I don't think so - unless it's a very obscure item their are Google reviews, YouTube reviews, forums - it's so easy to find an opinion on almost anything!

    If you really aren't sure about a purchase, don't buy it from an overseas seller! It's common sense. I just bought an item for my motorbike from a seller in Italy - I'm fully aware if I don't like it, it will cost me to to return it. I could have bought it from a UK seller with free returns but I knew what I wanted and the price was worth the hassle if things go wrong.

    Some people just look at the lowest price and forget about service, item location etc. There are tons of posts on here where people get scammed because they looked for the cheapest price and ended up getting a fake from China (or nothing at all).
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 6th Jan 18, 10:27 AM
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    chattychappy
    • #8
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:27 AM
    • #8
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:27 AM
    I don't think so - unless it's a very obscure item their are Google reviews, YouTube reviews, forums - it's so easy to find an opinion on almost anything!

    If you really aren't sure about a purchase, don't buy it from an overseas seller! It's common sense. I just bought an item for my motorbike from a seller in Italy - I'm fully aware if I don't like it, it will cost me to to return it. I could have bought it from a UK seller with free returns but I knew what I wanted and the price was worth the hassle if things go wrong.

    Some people just look at the lowest price and forget about service, item location etc. There are tons of posts on here where people get scammed because they looked for the cheapest price and ended up getting a fake from China (or nothing at all).
    Originally posted by camelot1971
    That is true. But we don't know what research the OP did into either the seller or the product. Also Germany is very different from China. I was importing stuff from China 20 years ago and lived in Taiwan for a while. I know what goes on - and that is (one of) the reasons why products locally sourced in the UK are more expensive than buying direct. By cutting out the middleman you are often cutting out QC checks, compliance checks, and consumer-friendly remedies not to mention facilitating tax dodging and leaving yourself open to fraud. CCs were never really designed as "protection" against this.
    • AllieKat
    • By AllieKat 6th Jan 18, 11:28 AM
    • 91 Posts
    • 57 Thanks
    AllieKat
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 11:28 AM
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 11:28 AM
    Amex service sure isn't as impressive as it used to be is all I can say from my experiences.
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 6th Jan 18, 11:35 AM
    • 6,809 Posts
    • 3,701 Thanks
    chattychappy
    Amex service sure isn't as impressive as it used to be is all I can say from my experiences.
    Originally posted by AllieKat
    I used Amex from the late 80s until, I suppose the early 00s. I never found it anything special. I had the platinum chargecard for most of that time. The marketing suggested some higher level of service, but in the end I found it was the same as other cards - queuing sytems on the phone, and excuses why they couldn't do whatever it was I was asking for. I had it mainly for the insurance. The currency loading meant I spent very little on it in later years.

    I recently got a gold chargecard for the sign up bonus, but will cancel before the fee becomes due.
    • dresdendave
    • By dresdendave 6th Jan 18, 2:07 PM
    • 762 Posts
    • 931 Thanks
    dresdendave

    The retailer is willing to accept a return, but not the cost of postage (which is significant). I purchased with Amex, thinking that would give me excellent protection in this case.
    Originally posted by marcosscriven
    I've just weighed and measured my E reader and according to Royal Mail it would cost £13.80 to send it to Germany (tracked and signature required).

    Rather than jumping through all these hoops why not cough up this (hardly significant) sum to get your refund and accept it's one of the pitfalls of buying items unseen.
    • marcosscriven
    • By marcosscriven 6th Jan 18, 5:24 PM
    • 77 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    marcosscriven
    I've just weighed and measured my E reader and according to Royal Mail it would cost £13.80 to send it to Germany (tracked and signature required).

    Rather than jumping through all these hoops why not cough up this (hardly significant) sum to get your refund and accept it's one of the pitfalls of buying items unseen.
    Originally posted by dresdendave
    Thanks for the response.

    The item would require £710 insurance to cover its value - even on parcel2go Iíve not seen anything much less than £40 including that.
    • marcosscriven
    • By marcosscriven 6th Jan 18, 5:25 PM
    • 77 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    marcosscriven
    You should have done your research before buying something from outside the UK. It's perfectly reasonable for the store to expect you to pay for the return - it's not faulty, you just aren't happy with it.

    Postage back to Germany shouldn't be too prohibitive - I can't imagine it weighs a great deal.
    Originally posted by camelot1971
    Thereís quite a few of the important functions that donít work. And really itís the insurance costs for return postage that seem high to me.
    • marcosscriven
    • By marcosscriven 6th Jan 18, 5:27 PM
    • 77 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    marcosscriven
    I don't think so - unless it's a very obscure item their are Google reviews, YouTube reviews, forums - it's so easy to find an opinion on almost anything!

    If you really aren't sure about a purchase, don't buy it from an overseas seller! It's common sense. I just bought an item for my motorbike from a seller in Italy - I'm fully aware if I don't like it, it will cost me to to return it. I could have bought it from a UK seller with free returns but I knew what I wanted and the price was worth the hassle if things go wrong.

    Some people just look at the lowest price and forget about service, item location etc. There are tons of posts on here where people get scammed because they looked for the cheapest price and ended up getting a fake from China (or nothing at all).
    Originally posted by camelot1971
    It!!!8217;s a brand new product, and they are the sole European distributor at the moment. I didn!!!8217;t go for the cheapest at all. And I did the best research I could from limited reviews. Some of the features (such as acting as a monitor) just don!!!8217;t work as described. In fact, the software crashes a lot of the time. That wasn!!!8217;t covered in any review.

    It does seem a shame comments like this have to be so barbed. Why do we have to speak to each other this way on forums? We don!!!8217;t generally do it in real life. That!!!8217;s one of the reasons I post with my full real name. I like to treat online posts as I would real life communication.
    Last edited by marcosscriven; 06-01-2018 at 5:35 PM.
    • camelot1971
    • By camelot1971 7th Jan 18, 10:39 AM
    • 825 Posts
    • 1,231 Thanks
    camelot1971
    I'd give the same comments directly to you.

    It's a new product, so you were taking a risk. If it genuinely doesn't do what it should do, then it's faulty or not as described and you should insist on the seller paying for the return.

    If its software bugs, contact the manufacturer and see what they say - fixes might be coming shortly.

    At the end of the day though, you bought a new to market product from somewhere where it will cost money to return if you don't like it. You didn't have to buy it.
    • camelot1971
    • By camelot1971 7th Jan 18, 10:45 AM
    • 825 Posts
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    camelot1971
    I presume it's from here: https://ereader-store.de/en/content/6-returns

    It says there they will provide a UPS label and deduct the cost from the refund - I'm pretty certain it won't cost £40 for the label and as they are the ones providing it, it's their risk if it goes missing or is damaged.

    If I were you I'd use their process and get on with your life. Even if it cost £20, surely that's worth it on a £700 (!) E-reader?
    • eco_warrior
    • By eco_warrior 7th Jan 18, 5:59 PM
    • 89 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    eco_warrior
    MasterCard would be the same here

    Visa would have you return it

    Donít know much about Amex but their response seems standard
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