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  • FIRST POST
    • Capt Mainwaring
    • By Capt Mainwaring 1st Jan 18, 9:10 PM
    • 59Posts
    • 25Thanks
    Capt Mainwaring
    Help and guidance please
    • #1
    • 1st Jan 18, 9:10 PM
    Help and guidance please 1st Jan 18 at 9:10 PM
    Hi

    This is my first post. I've read through some of the stickies and I've got to admit, my head is spinning a little. I could really do with some help and guidance, as I'm not sure where to go from here. I feel sick as I type this and I just want the whole miserable saga to end quickly.

    Two PCNs have been issued by a well known car parking firm. An appeal was done via their website to address the first one (this was perhaps nave but was done without any prior internet research). Unsurprisingly, they were not interested in the rationale. When the appeal didn't work, I then began to consult the various forums dedicated to this subject. Most of the comments I read were unequivocal, in that any further correspondence from the company or any follow up letters from a Solicitor should be ignored. This advice has been duly followed.

    The latest letter is headed - Notice of Pending County Court Claim - I've been fairly bullish to this point, as I don't believe any money is owed to this company (their machines were out of order on both occasions). However, I'm now at a point of what do I do next? Do I continue to ignore the letters and potentially receive a court summons? Should I write them a 'cease and desist' letter, as per the various examples I've seen. Perhaps I should have written to the Retailer that I visited on both occasions, although given the amount of time that has elapsed, I'm not sure if they can help...

    Please can you help, as this is seriously getting me down. Thank you.
Page 2
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jan 18, 11:02 PM
    • 58,303 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    So the driver was given away and 'not paying' was admitted. Ouch, bad appeal.

    A PPC Trade Body would say a driver should have left the car park if they couldn't comply. I am not saying I agree but that's what the PPC will say, and/or they'll allege one machine was working all along.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 3rd Jan 18, 11:04 PM
    • 1,352 Posts
    • 2,710 Thanks
    Lamilad
    '?? have used the car park in Keighley many times before and have ALWAYS paid the fare.!
    Is "??" Where you refer to who was driving?
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 3rd Jan 18, 11:07 PM
    • 1,352 Posts
    • 2,710 Thanks
    Lamilad
    they'll allege one machine was working all along.
    If the PDT logs are anything like the ones we've seen recently I think they can be easily discredited.
    • Capt Mainwaring
    • By Capt Mainwaring 3rd Jan 18, 11:45 PM
    • 59 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Capt Mainwaring
    Quick update - I've found an email from Ian Moore of Sports Direct on Peppipoo about Cavendish Retail Park in Keighley. His email is in response to someone who has complained to them.

    I've sent an email to Ian Moore and I've copied in Sports Direct Customer Services team as well. I should have done this months ago. Better late than never, I suppose.
    • Capt Mainwaring
    • By Capt Mainwaring 3rd Jan 18, 11:47 PM
    • 59 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Capt Mainwaring
    Yes, ?? is the driver.
    • Capt Mainwaring
    • By Capt Mainwaring 3rd Jan 18, 11:50 PM
    • 59 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Capt Mainwaring
    Hi CM

    As I said before, the appeal was sent before any internet research was done. Does this mean the driver is screwed?

    If it does, then the 'fine' needs paying as soon as possible. No correspondence has been entered in to regarding the second PCN.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 4th Jan 18, 12:17 AM
    • 1,352 Posts
    • 2,710 Thanks
    Lamilad
    If it does, then the 'fine' needs paying as soon as possible.!
    No it doesn't! Unless your happy to be the next scam victim.

    It just means your can't use a PoFA defence, which is usually very effective against Excel. There are many other valid and robust defence points that can be used against them, it just depends whether or not you have the will to fight.

    A well prepared defendant is almost always successful against Excel when supported by this forum. That said, litigation is always a gamble and you could lose.

    Even if you do it is unlikely you'll pay much more than if you settled now. You could even pay less.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Jan 18, 12:18 AM
    • 58,303 Posts
    • 71,841 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Does this mean the driver is screwed?
    No.

    If it does, then the 'fine' needs paying as soon as possible.
    No. How on earth do posters sometimes make that leap when 'pay it' is NEVER uttered here!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Capt Mainwaring
    • By Capt Mainwaring 4th Jan 18, 8:35 AM
    • 59 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Capt Mainwaring
    No it doesn't! Unless your happy to be the next scam victim.

    It just means your can't use a PoFA defence, which is usually very effective against Excel. There are many other valid and robust defence points that can be used against them, it just depends whether or not you have the will to fight.

    A well prepared defendant is almost always successful against Excel when supported by this forum. That said, litigation is always a gamble and you could lose.

    Even if you do it is unlikely you'll pay much more than if you settled now. You could even pay less.
    Originally posted by Lamilad
    I have certainly have the will to fight on. I just want this to end and quickly...

    What I'd like to know is:

    1) If a PoFA defence can't be used against the first PCN what do you recommend I use?

    2) The penultimate letter I received from BW Legal was a Letter of Claim (issued in Nov 2017). An information sheet that came with it (Annex 1) contains the following wording;

    'This information sheet is a summary of your rights and responsibilities under the Pre-Action Protocol for debt claims'.

    It then confirms a website address (Justice.gov.uk). As this letter was issued after 1st October, does the Daniel San letter still apply?

    3) As no correspondence has been entered in to against the second PCN, I assume a PoFA defence can be used against that?
    • Capt Mainwaring
    • By Capt Mainwaring 4th Jan 18, 8:38 AM
    • 59 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Capt Mainwaring
    Hi CM.

    Sorry about that. I just wish some internet research had been done, before appealing direct to Excel. Still, we can't turn the clock back, so any help or guidance on how to defend the first PCN would be more than welcome.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Jan 18, 8:55 AM
    • 17,969 Posts
    • 28,433 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    1) If a PoFA defence can't be used against the first PCN what do you recommend I use?
    Other defence points such as deficient/unclear signage, landowner authority to pursue charges, including up to court level, whether the Beavis case helps you - check Lamilad!!!8217;s dismembering of Excel!!!8217;s 3 court cases against him (click on his user name, then !!!8216;statistics!!!8217;, then !!!8216;show all threads by Lamilad!!!8217;) for further areas of challenge.

    2) The penultimate letter I received from BW Legal was a Letter of Claim (issued in Nov 2017). An information sheet that came with it (Annex 1) contains the following wording;

    'This information sheet is a summary of your rights and responsibilities under the Pre-Action Protocol for debt claims'.
    You respond by asking for every item you can find, which helps you via the PaP, to be forwarded to you in full, in writing, so as the defendant, you have a full understanding of the claim their client is making. List every item you require confirmation/further detail.

    3) As no correspondence has been entered in to against the second PCN, I assume a PoFA defence can be used against that?
    Deal with each charge as a separate entity - standard advice - so a PoFA defence is available to you, they must prove who the driver was if they fail PoFA requirements. They will quote Elliott v Loakes and CPS v AJH Film, but these are discredited cases in the context of private parking charges against an individual.

    Looking further (probably too far at this point), ordinarily, once an individual!!!8217;s multiple cases have got to the court stage we recommend asking the court to hear all cases at one session, to save the court and the individual being involved in multiple preparation and attendance. Given that you might be defending each of your cases potentially from two different angles, separate hearings might be better advised.

    Please note - the preceding paragraph is just my opinion, not a learned one from someone with legal knowledge or qualification.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Capt Mainwaring
    • By Capt Mainwaring 6th Jan 18, 12:19 PM
    • 59 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Capt Mainwaring
    Quick update - Claim Form's were received yesterday from The County Court Business Centre in Northampton.

    I was going to ask if I should complete the defence form or the acknowledgement of service but after reading the detailed views of Loads of Children and Bargepole on the Newbies thread, I will complete the acknowledgement of service for both claims and send them to Northampton on Monday.

    In the meantime, I'll have to get busy reading! As I will have two slightly different defences, I'll hopefully post the two draft letters on here within the next seven to ten days or so.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 6th Jan 18, 12:29 PM
    • 1,352 Posts
    • 2,710 Thanks
    Lamilad
    !I will complete the acknowledgement of service for both claims and send them to Northampton on Monday.
    Why not the acknowledgement on MCOL like everyone else? Why waste a stamp?

    I will have two slightly different defences
    Will you be going with a PoFA defence on one of the claims? How far apart were the two parking events?
    • Capt Mainwaring
    • By Capt Mainwaring 6th Jan 18, 12:48 PM
    • 59 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Capt Mainwaring
    Why not the acknowledgement on MCOL like everyone else? Why waste a stamp?

    I think I misread Bargepole's advice. I think he recommended the submission of your defence by post, rather than using MCOL. I'm happy to use MCOL to complete the AoS and then send my defence letters by registered post .

    Will you be going with a PoFA defence on one of the claims? How far apart were the two parking events?

    I was thinking of PoFA for the second, unacknowledged event. There was just over one month between the two events.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 6th Jan 18, 1:07 PM
    • 1,352 Posts
    • 2,710 Thanks
    Lamilad
    AOS via MCOL and defence by email - no stamps.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 3:03 PM
    • 58,303 Posts
    • 71,841 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think I misread Bargepole's advice. I think he recommended the submission of your defence by post
    No, you are not submitting a defence first. The AOS is shown in a pictorial walk through link, in the NEWBIES thread, clearly this is best done online.

    Defence is (later, within 14 days of AOS) emailed to the ccbcaq address.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Capt Mainwaring
    • By Capt Mainwaring 15th Jan 18, 10:13 PM
    • 59 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Capt Mainwaring
    Hi

    Like most people I guess, I'm basing my defence letter on what I can find on here. Unfortunately, I've not worked on this for a few days, as I've just had a mini health scare (not helped by being stressed out with the thought of this).

    Anyway, I've tried to read up on people who are going through the same thing with Excel/BW Legal and I've noticed that !!!!!!!!! has sent them an email for further information. From what I gather, they will ignore it but at least I can say in Court that I've asked them for the information.

    I plan to email the following to BW Legal:

    I write with regards to the County Court Claims. To ensure that I have all of the information required and to narrow the issues under dispute. Please answer the following questions:-

    1. Please can you give an explanation of the cause of action?


    2. Is Excel Parking pursuing me as the driver or keeper?

    3. What is the basis of the claim? Is Excel Parking making a claim as an agent of the landowner or are they making the claim as occupier in their own right?

    4. Is the amount claimed by Excel Parking for a genuine pre-estimate of loss for a breach of contract or a contractual sum?

    5. If the contract has been conveyed by the use of signage on site, please provide copies of the signs on which you rely and confirm these are the signs in situ on the date of the event. Please also provide the date these signs were installed, for example, a works schedule, maintenance record or invoice for the work.

    6. Were there signs at the entrance to the site on the date in question? Did these meet the British Parking Association's Code of Practice Appendix B (Entrance signs) or the Independent Parking Committee!!!8217;s Schedule 1 (Please indicate)

    7. A copy of the PCN Terms and Conditions

    Please can you provide the above information within 14 days.


    I assume the above will be acceptable?



    Also, I completed the AoS via MCOL on 7/1. I thought this meant that I then had 28 days to submit a defence but Coupon Mad's last post states 14 days, which means that I need to write two defence letters by this weekend?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jan 18, 10:19 PM
    • 58,303 Posts
    • 71,841 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Sorry if I confused you.

    You have 28 days plus up to 5 (i.e. submit this on or before day 33 in working hours and NOT later) from the date on the claim form, to get that defence in. So count from the date on the claim form. Not from when you did the AOS!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Jan 18, 10:24 PM
    • 18,304 Posts
    • 23,185 Thanks
    Redx
    I think I misread Bargepole's advice. I think he recommended the submission of your defence by post, rather than using MCOL.

    I'm happy to use MCOL to complete the AoS and then send my defence letters by registered post .
    Originally posted by Capt Mainwaring
    he actually recommended sending the DEFENCE by post (not the AOS although post can be used)

    he also set out the font , the type and font size and spacing between lines etc too

    but you have to look at the date he posted that post and compare it to where we now tell people to email the CCBC with their defence as an attachment , because they seem to be more setup for online emails now whereas they probably werent back then (18 months ago)

    tempus fugit , the clock is ticking , and use of the internet and email etc is much more widespread. you would expect that the CCBC would have allowed an upload of your defence etc by now , but they seem to have a defence box with the lines restricted and no formatting etc , or the email option , we now prefer the latter with the defence as an attachment , preferablt a pdf (or a word docx)

    back in mannerings day they would have used a manual typewriter (like my secretary mum did - plus she did shorthand too) and snail mail with a stamp, we no longer expect you to use either in 2018 , lol
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 15th Jan 18, 10:31 PM
    • 1,352 Posts
    • 2,710 Thanks
    Lamilad
    The request for further info is generally pointless unless there's genuinely something you need to prepare your case.

    It might make them look a little unreasonable if they don't respond but not to a degree that would do them any harm.

    And BWL DO sometimes respond meaning the whole exercise backfires
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