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  • FIRST POST
    • DippityDooDah
    • By DippityDooDah 27th Dec 17, 4:48 PM
    • 29Posts
    • 103Thanks
    DippityDooDah
    CGT and Letting Relief
    • #1
    • 27th Dec 17, 4:48 PM
    CGT and Letting Relief 27th Dec 17 at 4:48 PM
    working out my OH self assessment and have a question regarding CGT and Letting Relied that I hope one of you good peple will know the answer to.

    House bought in 1997 from Council for 17,500, 70% discount at time so market value was 58k
    lived in as family home until 2010. Market value at this time 90k
    rented out from 2010-2017 when it was sold on 31/3/17 for 90k.
    Deductable costs 2500 (selling fees, solicitors etc)

    I have worked out that he has Private Residence Relief for 14.5 of the 20 years he owned it (13 years lived in plus 18 months allowance)

    i work out the chargable gain to be on 19,250, which is approx 3850 in tax.

    how do i know if we are eligible for Letting Relief? if he is eligible for this it would mean that there was no tax owed?

    Also, can CGT be offset against tax allowance? He has only earner 5400 in 16/17 so has not used his full tax allowance.

    any help would be very much appreciated.

    thank you in advance
    DDD x
Page 1
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 27th Dec 17, 7:55 PM
    • 6,811 Posts
    • 6,426 Thanks
    00ec25
    • #2
    • 27th Dec 17, 7:55 PM
    • #2
    • 27th Dec 17, 7:55 PM
    working out my OH self assessment and have a question regarding CGT and Letting Relied that I hope one of you good peple will know the answer to.

    House bought in 1997 from Council for 17,500, 70% discount at time so market value was 58k
    lived in as family home until 2010. Market value at this time 90k
    rented out from 2010-2017 when it was sold on 31/3/17 for 90k.
    Deductable costs 2500 (selling fees, solicitors etc)

    I have worked out that he has Private Residence Relief for 14.5 of the 20 years he owned it (13 years lived in plus 18 months allowance)

    i work out the chargable gain to be on 19,250, which is approx 3850 in tax.

    how do i know if we are eligible for Letting Relief? if he is eligible for this it would mean that there was no tax owed?

    Also, can CGT be offset against tax allowance? He has only earner 5400 in 16/17 so has not used his full tax allowance.

    any help would be very much appreciated.

    thank you in advance
    DDD x
    Originally posted by DippityDooDah
    you have not stated who the owner is but you imply he is the sole owner? I will take as read that you are legally married to each other and that as the property has now been sold it is too late to take advantage of that fact. So the mechanics of a PRR and LR calculation are as follows:

    1. Work out the Gross Gain
    The gain is the difference between what it cost to buy and what it sells for, less any costs associated with its purchase (eg legal fees and SDLT paid) and costs associated with its sale (eg legal fees and estate agent fees). Although not mentioned in your case, the costs of any capital improvements can also be deducted, but not the cost of any work which is merely doing repairs (the distinction between the 2 needs a separate much longer explanation so I'll ignore it for now).
    You should be able to support any amounts claimed as costs by being able to produce original invoices/receipts if HMRC challenge you to do so.

    In your case, as there is only one owner, the entire gain is attributable to that person only, so sale price 90 less purchase cost 17,500 = 72.5 less 2,500 costs = Gross Gain 70,000 x your ownership share (you are sole owner so 100% share) = 70,000

    all other values are irrelevant. The discount/ market value on purchase is irrelevant, the "value" when let is irrelevant.

    that gain spans the full ownership period 1997 - 2017 = 20 years. In reality the period should never be measured in years as that is not precise enough to deal with exact start and stop of letting periods and occupation periods. You should use months (or if you wish, exact days)

    2. Claim Private Residence Relief (PRR) amount
    If the owner lived in the property as their only/main home they are entitled to claim PRR for that period. if that is the case the PRR automatically also includes the final 18 months of the ownership of the property irrespective of whether it was lived in, let, or remained empty for that final period (for example because the tenant had moved out and it was being advertised for sale, not being advertised for letting).

    In your case we don't have the months count, so purely for illustration purposes we'll stick with your year dates meaning as it was let "from 2010" it ceased to be main residence in 2009. Thus, main residence period 1997 - 2009 = 13 years + final 18 months = total PRR period 14.5 years

    PRR amount 70,000 x 14.5/20 = 50,750

    (Note - "main residence" is a concept rather than a fixed definition, and if in doubt will be judged on the facts of each individual case. The key points are actual occupation with a degree of permanence, continuity or expectation of continuity. Marriage also impacts it.)

    3. Claim Letting Relief (LR)
    Where a property which has at some point in its ownership been a main residence is at another time let, then you can claim LR for the period it was physically tenanted and any intermediate periods when it was void but was actively being marketed for let. If there is no claim to PRR then you cannot claim LR.
    Obviously your evidence to support your claim will be the signed tenancy agreements, your bank account showing rental receipts, your income tax returns declaring the rental profits, and any dated adverts for "property to let". If it was still being let during the final 18 months of ownership you cannot double count that period as it is already included in the PRR so the let period may need to be adjusted to exclude the final 18 months

    Crucially, the LR amount is restricted to the lowest value from 3 calculations:
    a) the amount of PRR calculated in step 2 above
    or
    b) the amount of gain calculated for the let period
    or
    c) The max amount allowed which is 40,000

    In your case:
    the letting was from 2010 to 2017, but that includes the final 18 months so the let period is 7 years - 18 months = 5.5 years

    always do the sense check that the ownership period has been fully accounted for as there may be a period when neither PRR nor LR apply, eg. there may have been a period when the property was not let nor lived in as the main residence, ie. it was merely a second home and thus no relief available for that period. In your case however it is straightforward: PRR + LR equals total ownership 14.5 + 5.5 = 20 !

    The lowest LR amount is:
    a) PRR = 50,750
    b) gain in let period 70,000 x 5.5/20 = 19,250
    c) max allowed 40,000

    in your case the lowest is b) 19,250

    4. Calculate the net taxable gain

    Each person who has a share of the gain gets an "annual exempt amount" (the AEA is given in the year of sale only on a use it or lose it that year basis, you cannot carry forward any unused amounts from previous years) and for 18/19 tax year it is 11,700

    So in your case, as there is only one owner, the net taxable gain is Gross gain - PRR - LR - (if needed) the AEA = 70,000 - 50,750 - 19,250 = ZERO (- 11,700 if needed)

    In other words none of the annual exempt amount is needed as the gain is already at zero, so in this case the sole owner has no tax to pay at all as the liability is relieved in full.

    If there was more than one owner the gross gain is split according to the respective ownership share and each person then calculates their own PRR and LR on their respective share. That is however irrelevant for you as there is only one owner.

    5. Pay any CGT due
    if the net taxable gain is >0 you will have to pay CGT on it at the rate of 18% and/or 28%. CGT is not income tax, it is not the 20% you seem to think it is.
    The calculation is simple but long winded to explain... the threshold for when the 28% starts is the (income tax) higher rate threshold and applies to your "total taxable income" which means your income subject to income tax, less your income tax personal allowance, but plus your net taxable CGT gain.

    For example, suppose you have a salary of 20k and a net taxable gain of 40k. Your "total taxable income" will be income subject to income tax (20 - 11.85 income tax 18/19 personal allowance) = 8.15 + 40k net taxable CGT gain = 48.15k "total taxable income".

    The higher rate tax threshold for 18/19 is 34,500, so your total taxable income is above that threshold, and thus some of your gain will be taxed at the 28% CGT rate.

    The calculation would be this: 34,500 - 8.15 = 26.35k tax at 18% = 4,743
    plus
    40k total gain - 26.35k already taxed at lower rate = 13.65k @ 28% = 3,822

    So for a 40k CGT liability based on someone with 20k of income taxable earnings you'd pay 4,743+3,822 = 8,565 CGT (an effective composite tax rate in this example of 21.14%)

    You will declare this calculation on your annual tax return and therefore you have to pay any tax due by the final deadline for a tax return, namely by the 31 Jan following the end of the tax year in which you made the gain, so for a gain made in 18/19 you need to pay by 31/1/20

    steps 1 - 5 can be understood in full detail by reading:
    https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-residence-relief-hs283-self-assessment-helpsheet

    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg64200c

    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg64738

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rates-and-allowances-capital-gains-tax/capital-gains-tax-rates-and-annual-tax-free-allowances

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tax-and-tax-credit-rates-and-thresholds-for-2017-18/tax-and-tax-credit-rates-and-thresholds-for-2017-18
    Last edited by 00ec25; 15-08-2018 at 11:14 PM.
    • DippityDooDah
    • By DippityDooDah 28th Dec 17, 5:28 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 103 Thanks
    DippityDooDah
    • #3
    • 28th Dec 17, 5:28 PM
    • #3
    • 28th Dec 17, 5:28 PM
    wow!! Thank you for such a detailed response, this is amazing.

    Thanks
    DDDx
    • purdyoaten2
    • By purdyoaten2 28th Dec 17, 7:05 PM
    • 900 Posts
    • 441 Thanks
    purdyoaten2
    • #4
    • 28th Dec 17, 7:05 PM
    • #4
    • 28th Dec 17, 7:05 PM
    Top stuff - 00ec25. One to refer back to?
    Would 'OF', Could 'OF', Should 'OF'.... AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 28th Dec 17, 7:33 PM
    • 6,811 Posts
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    00ec25
    • #5
    • 28th Dec 17, 7:33 PM
    • #5
    • 28th Dec 17, 7:33 PM
    Top stuff - 00ec25. One to refer back to?
    Originally posted by purdyoaten2
    that was the intention, hopefully it will avoid the (snarky) comment from someone on another thread that I did not mention letting relief in the text of my answer on that thread because I merely provided a link to a different worked example. Hopefully with the fuller example as above, it will be more "in yer face" and thus avoid such a repetition
    Last edited by 00ec25; 28-12-2017 at 11:30 PM.
    • David DJ
    • By David DJ 16th Jul 18, 6:11 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    David DJ
    • #6
    • 16th Jul 18, 6:11 AM
    Selling main residence and second home
    • #6
    • 16th Jul 18, 6:11 AM
    Hi
    I am new to this site and may have posted this in the wrong place.
    If I have please accept my apologies.
    My wife and I are considering selling our main residence (purchased 1998) and moving into our second home (purchased in 1988) that is rented out at the moment.
    I know that no capital gain tax will be paid on our main residence.
    My question is how long do we need to be seen to be living at the second home before we can sell it, and avoid paying any capital gains tax?
    Both houses are mortgage free.
    Thanks
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 16th Jul 18, 6:56 AM
    • 6,811 Posts
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    00ec25
    • #7
    • 16th Jul 18, 6:56 AM
    • #7
    • 16th Jul 18, 6:56 AM
    Hi
    I am new to this site and may have posted this in the wrong place.
    If I have please accept my apologies.
    My wife and I are considering selling our main residence (purchased 1998) and moving into our second home (purchased in 1988) that is rented out at the moment.
    I know that no capital gain tax will be paid on our main residence.
    My question is how long do we need to be seen to be living at the second home before we can sell it, and avoid paying any capital gains tax?
    Both houses are mortgage free.
    Thanks
    Originally posted by David DJ
    read post 2 ....

    you can't avoid paying CGT on the let property since it has not been your main home for the entire time you owned it so only gets partial CGT relief, not total exemption. How much you have to pay is then a question of number crunching, if the gain is small enough, it may be nothing.

    if your only use of the property has been as a second home and/or it has been let then neither of those periods will get any relief at all. If you now move into it and it becomes your de facto main residence (which means much much more than just number of months occupying it) then you could claim PRR for 18 months (or longer if you live there > 18 months) and thus claim LR for the let period (carefully noting the lowest value restriction...).

    You cannot claim any relief for the period it was a "second" home, hence you cannot avoid CGT in your case

    if you don't understand what is meant by main residence then please explain what you intend to do whilst occupying the "second" home having sold off your previous main residence. What do you intend to do when you sell your "second" home? As I said, main residence status requires more than just occupation, and what you did before and after can have a bearing on deciding if you were simply trying it on. Key tax case resulted in a person being denied 8 months of occupation on the basis it was a temporary arrangement done to gain a tax advantage, not to create a permanent home.
    Last edited by 00ec25; 17-07-2018 at 8:00 AM.
    • peabottle
    • By peabottle 16th Jul 18, 1:37 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    peabottle
    • #8
    • 16th Jul 18, 1:37 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Jul 18, 1:37 PM
    Thank you 00ec25 for your thorough explanation. I am in the process of selling a second property, is it possible you can confirm for me my situation. I have followed your example and have come up with the figures below. After buying and selling i will land up with a capital gain of 90,000.


    = 90,000 - PRR - LR - AEA

    = 90,000 - 22,500 - 22,500 - 11,700

    = 33,300 - 18% = 27,306 = 5,994 CGT



    The only income i have is an annuity of 950 + 2,494 Pension = 3,444 for this tax year ( i have savings ) I was contemplating taking out 7,000 from my HL sipp which is in cash keeping under my personal allowance.
    Would this have any bearing on the CGT figures above. Or do i leave the 7,000 where it is, and then start taking cash out in the new tax year.


    Help would be most appreciated.
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 16th Jul 18, 6:09 PM
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    00ec25
    • #9
    • 16th Jul 18, 6:09 PM
    • #9
    • 16th Jul 18, 6:09 PM
    = 33,300 - 18% = 27,306 = 5,994 CGT

    The only income i have is an annuity of 950 + 2,494 Pension = 3,444 for this tax year ( i have savings ) I was contemplating taking out 7,000 from my HL sipp which is in cash keeping under my personal allowance.
    Would this have any bearing on the CGT figures above. Or do i leave the 7,000 where it is, and then start taking cash out in the new tax year..
    Originally posted by peabottle
    as your income subject to income tax would be less than the personal allowance 3,444 +7,000 <11,850 it will not impact your CGT calculation whether you take the 7k or not
    • peabottle
    • By peabottle 17th Jul 18, 6:59 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    peabottle
    00ec25, Thank you for your reply, your help has been most appreciated.
    • sean07687
    • By sean07687 29th Jul 18, 2:36 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    sean07687
    Hi, this is regarding Capital gains Tax, this is my first post and I have been trawling the internet for days, sadly I am still none the wiser,

    I read OOec25's calculation above which is extensive and obviously well informed; I'm sure it covers most things but I'm sorry I just can't figure out the answer to the question I have, maths is not my strongest suit and if anyone can help it would be much appreciated, please be kind.

    I bought my house (a one-bed cluster home) in 1993 and it was only my sole residence for 3 years, I moved to London for work and only use the house occasionally. My Mortgage will be fully paid in a few months and I am hoping to sell it then as I am intending on moving to Ireland, I want to pay the CGT owed but it seems like a minefield. At the moment I just want a rough estimate so I can make plans.
    I bought the house for 45K in 1993
    Market value is now around 250K
    I have owned it for 25 years
    And I earn 43K (If this is relevant?)

    My thoughts are its about 40k owed but I'm pretty sure that is not correct.

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by sean07687; 29-07-2018 at 2:37 AM. Reason: Poor sentence
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 29th Jul 18, 11:21 AM
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    • 6,426 Thanks
    00ec25
    I bought my house (a one-bed cluster home) in 1993 and it was only my sole residence for 3 years, I moved to London for work and only use the house occasionally. ...

    I bought the house for 45K in 1993
    Market value is now around 250K
    I have owned it for 25 years
    And I earn 43K (If this is relevant?)

    My thoughts are its about 40k owed but I'm pretty sure that is not correct.
    Originally posted by sean07687
    so why did you keep the house for the last 22 years if you only use it occasionally?

    gain 205k
    prr 205 x 4.5/25 = 36,900
    allowance 11,700
    net taxable gain 205,000 - 36,900 - 11,700 = 156,400

    @18%
    43,000 - 11,850 = 31,150 against basic rate band 34,500 so 3,350 left from basic band
    3,350 x18% = 603

    @28%
    156,400 - 3,350 = 153,050 x 28% = 42,854

    total tax payable 43,457
    for illustration only, the real calculation cannot be done in years
    Last edited by 00ec25; 29-07-2018 at 6:45 PM.
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 31st Jul 18, 7:39 PM
    • 1,365 Posts
    • 962 Thanks
    saajan_12
    I bought my house (a one-bed cluster home) in 1993 - what month? and it was only my sole residence for 3 years, - how many months? I moved to London for work and only use the house occasionally. did you rent it out during that time? My Mortgage will be fully paid in a few months and I am hoping to sell it then as I am intending on moving to Ireland, I want to pay the CGT owed but it seems like a minefield. At the moment I just want a rough estimate so I can make plans.
    I bought the house for 45K in 1993 - what were buying costs (eg mortgage application fee, solicitors costs)
    Market value is now around 250K - what are selling costs (solicitors, EA fee)
    I have owned it for 25 years - how many months?
    And I earn 43K (If this is relevant?)

    My thoughts are its about 40k owed but I'm pretty sure that is not correct.

    Thanks in advance
    Originally posted by sean07687
    You need to give dates. 00ec25 has broken down the calculation for you based on the info you've given but you need to confirm
    1) how many months you've owned it
    2) how many months you've lived there
    3) how many months you let the house to tenants (if any) excluding the last 18months of ownership.
    4) Buying/selling costs
    5) Are you selling any other investments this tax year?
    • purdyoaten2
    • By purdyoaten2 31st Jul 18, 8:12 PM
    • 900 Posts
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    purdyoaten2
    And were there any capital improvements in the 22 years?
    Would 'OF', Could 'OF', Should 'OF'.... AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!
    • sean07687
    • By sean07687 5th Aug 18, 6:03 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    sean07687
    Hi thanks for the response, 00ec25

    I kept the property because I wanted somewhere to live near my family when I was not in London? Is that relevant to the question I asked?

    I wanted to keep my house as an investment while I rent a property in London, the selling price of the house has gone up from 45K to 250K..... I know literally nothing about financial matters, hence the question, yet it seems to me that it was a good idea to keep the property?
    Last edited by sean07687; 05-08-2018 at 6:04 PM. Reason: no name
    • sean07687
    • By sean07687 5th Aug 18, 6:21 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    sean07687
    purdyoaten2

    Could of, would of, should of...... AAAAAAAAArgh,

    Why do you post that? It's so rude.

    I asked a question and explained at the time that I know nothing of financial matters, it seems to me that this website can often be a forum for people to put down other people simply because they do not have knowledge, I thought the point of Forms was to help people, who are in need of advice, not be damn sarcastic to them, I explained I knew very little about that subject and I also asked people to be 'kind' because of this. I wanted HELP, not sarcasm...

    Yes I have made improvements, I have installed:

    Gas boiler and central heating, 3,000

    Double glazing, 2,000

    Wooden floors ,2000

    New kitchen 1500

    New batroom 1500

    Why could not just say, "Sean have you made improvements to the house as this affects the calculation."

    Would that not have been more polite?
    • sean07687
    • By sean07687 5th Aug 18, 6:24 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    sean07687
    saajan_12
    Thank you saajan_12, I don't have that information to hand I'm afraid but no I have not rented to anyone else, it has been a bolt hole for me when I needed one.... Thanks though I will try to find these matters out.
    • purdyoaten2
    • By purdyoaten2 6th Aug 18, 8:14 AM
    • 900 Posts
    • 441 Thanks
    purdyoaten2
    WOW
    Originally posted by 00ec25
    Wow indeed!
    Would 'OF', Could 'OF', Should 'OF'.... AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!
    • Warmq
    • By Warmq 7th Aug 18, 10:42 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Warmq
    I feel this is a nice website.
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