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  • FIRST POST
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 18th Dec 17, 1:51 PM
    • 106Posts
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    nasescoba1985
    PCN - parking in my own space
    • #1
    • 18th Dec 17, 1:51 PM
    PCN - parking in my own space 18th Dec 17 at 1:51 PM
    Hey guys.


    Cut a long story slightly short. I own my property in a small gated apartment development. The property mamagement director decided to implement a parking company ( CPM uk car park management ) last August because he was being petty and bitter that the residents were forming an association and complaining about the management of the complex + residents were using 2nd cars to park in visitors bays.



    Anyway, we all received our own permits without any justification, apart from a rubbish forceful email stating we were now having to dispaly these permits. I recieved one which is for my own parking space. Now, I had no choice at this moment in time but to abide by the new "rules" and put my permit on my dashboard and on this particular occasion a few months down the line, I shut my door and the wind must of blew the permit off.



    I received a PCN for parking in my own bloody space as my permit wasn't on the dashboard. Anyway I sent an appeal letter basically stating this is my own space and providing them with a copy of my permit , plus I explained the reasoning why my permit fell off. I also put in my letter, if this is rejected can they provide me with a popla code.




    I just received a letter back today rejecting my appeal explaining they acknowledge my proof of permit but because I didn't display the permit properly, I need to pay the fine. They obviously have the photo evidence on the letter to. Obviously no way in a million years am I paying these !!!!s any sort of money to park in my own private parking space. I also appealed via IAS, as i felt that i can atleast justify in court if need be, that i went down every avenue to try and overturn this charge. What do I do now?


    I had a quick look at the newbies thread which looks very helpful but there is a lot of detail on it so I'm not sure if my particular case is relevant and if I can get a template from someone so I can write back to these


    Thank you
    Last edited by nasescoba1985; 09-02-2018 at 8:52 AM. Reason: Add more info
Page 7
    • drh90
    • By drh90 11th Jan 18, 9:21 AM
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    drh90
    It didn't help that Mr. Blaney was quite uncooperative and seemed borderline obstructive towards the judge regarding the permits. And that they were merely tenants and actually had no claim of 'leasehold ownership' of the space.

    Robinson is interesting in that Judge Metcalf decided that the Management Company must provide evidence that a lease has been varied, before they can engage a Parking Company. He warned that letters regarding the need to display a permit are not sufficient evidence of a lease being varied. "A mere letter regarding permits would not, in my judgment, suffice in this regard."

    Would we assume therefore that for a letter to be considered evidence of a variation, it would need to explicitly state that they are altering the parking arrangements originally agreed in the lease, under term xyz which allows them to do so?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 11th Jan 18, 10:09 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    OP - if the MC has done something explicitly against the interests of the residents, that wouldbe usedul in priving your need to take over from them.
    Add to that, they are reuqired to show the full contract to you. They only work on hbehalf of you and noone else.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 11th Jan 18, 10:47 AM
    • 2,404 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    They only work on hbehalf of you and noone else.
    I think you might not have that quite right.

    The MA is there to ensure the Freeholders responsibilities with regards to the common areas which the Freeholder owns are met as part of a lease. They are also there to "manage" the leaseholders for the common good.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 11th Jan 18, 5:27 PM
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    nasescoba1985
    UPDATE!!

    The UK CPM responded the little rats. They basically said by displaying a badge, I have agreed to a contract to them and am liable for this charge for not displaying a valid permit hahaha

    I of course responded with a load of legal jargon again about them committing an illegal act by going against my lease in which I uploaded the relevant lease details that show I have a right to park a car in my own space. I then finished it with “ I will see you in Court “



    I will not back down and I won’t pay these guys a penny:


    It will obviously go to the ISA to make a decision and of course I will probably lose but I will take them to court if need be. I went through the lease with the chairman of our residents association and nowhere in our lease does it give the management of our complex permission to change anything in the common parts or implement any type of scheme.
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 11th Jan 18, 5:28 PM
    • 106 Posts
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    nasescoba1985
    IAS ( I will get it right eventually )
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 11th Jan 18, 5:37 PM
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    IamEmanresu
    The UK CPM responded the little rats. They basically said by displaying a badge, I have agreed to a contract to them and am liable for this charge for not displaying a valid permit hahaha
    The idea behind this approach is that they are decoupling the primacy of lease argument so you can't use it (but you can).

    They are saying that you had a brand new contract with them for "space management" and the terms of that was you owed them £100 if you failed to display. The counter argument is no meeting of minds. You were not aware that you were entering a contract and no reasonable person would ever agree to such a term.

    But .... it is an argument that the odd judge might accept.

    Best to get some sort of arrangement with the MA to get rid of UKCPM as it is clear, their introduction doesn't help anyone. And the longer they are there the more hassle they will be.

    Time to kiss and make up with the MA.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Jan 18, 5:45 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
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    pappa golf
    as this is a small GATED settup , perhaps an extra lock/chain to which the parking addendant will have no key , and then there are those silly little fairies that insist on placing bags over parking signs during the day , if the PPC have no income , they will move on
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 11th Jan 18, 5:47 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 54 Thanks
    nasescoba1985
    No the MA is of no help whatsoever. That boat has long sailed as we are currently in the process of taking over the management of the complex and there!!!8217;s a strong possibility by March, the residents association will have taken control of management. In the meantime though, I have my own personal issue with UK CPM, which is of course the PCN in question and what we are discussing on this forum. So if I lose this appeal which I am certain I will, just ignore any letters I get from now on, until I get court papers? That correct? In the meantime, I will do research into similar court cases
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 11th Jan 18, 5:51 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 54 Thanks
    nasescoba1985
    GUYS, out of interest, if long down the line it does go to court and I lose. What is the worse possible amount I will have to pay ? I just want to get a basic understanding incase the worse happens.
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 11th Jan 18, 6:00 PM
    • 106 Posts
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    nasescoba1985
    The only worry I slightly have is, I have openly admitted to displaying the permits beforehand and admitted I displayed the permit on this particular day and it fell off my windscreen. They can just say I knew full well the consequences by displaying the badge. How could I defend this ? I did say in my defence that I was forced upon this appointment and felt I had no choice but to display the badge.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 11th Jan 18, 6:02 PM
    • 3,299 Posts
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    The Slithy Tove
    GUYS, out of interest, if long down the line it does go to court and I lose. What is the worse possible amount I will have to pay ?
    Originally posted by nasescoba1985
    It should be JUST the parking charge plus a few costs, like the court filing fee. If they are using POFA, they cannot ask for more. Even if not, your defence should challenge the various debt collection fees that they'll no doubt add along the way (you demand to see proof that such fees were ever paid to the debt collectors, which they won't have, as they only get paid by results), and any other spurious charges. They cannot claim their own legal fees beyond the standard £50 they slap on for filing a claim. So it'd be roughly the parking charge + about £100.
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 11th Jan 18, 6:12 PM
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    nasescoba1985
    Thank you, well I think the £100+ is worth the risk as I will win this
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 29th Jan 18, 9:21 PM
    • 106 Posts
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    nasescoba1985
    Hey guys ,


    Well as expected IAS went in favour of the parking company. I won!!!8217;t go into to much detail, but they basically stated the lease snippets I gave them as evidence of my right to park in my space was only part of the lease and they couldn!!!8217;t be to sure it related to my property ... bla bla bla. They basically said UK CPM lawfully sanctioned the ticket and the result goes in their favour. Obviously they said I should either make the payment within 14 days or seek legal advice if I still feel it!!!8217;s the wrong decision,

    What to do now boys ?
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 29th Jan 18, 9:24 PM
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    nasescoba1985
    Below is the dismissal if anyone wants to read. The Adjudicators comments are as follows:

    "The Appellant should understand that the Adjudicator is not in a position to give legal advice to either of the parties but they are entitled to seek their own independent legal advice. The Adjudicator!!!8217;s role is to consider whether or not the parking charge has a basis in law and was properly issued in the circumstances of each individual case. In all Appeals the Adjudicator is bound by the relevant law applicable at the time and is only able to consider legal challenges and not factual mistakes nor extenuating or mitigating circumstances. Throughout this appeal the Operator has had the opportunity consider all points raised and could have conceded the appeal at any stage. The Adjudicator who deals with this Appeal is legally qualified and each case is dealt with according to their understanding of the law as it applies and the legal principles involved. A decision by an Adjudicator is not legally binding on an Appellant who is entitled to seek their own legal advice if they so wish.

    In all Appeals the burden of proof is the civil one whereby the party asserting a fact or submission has to establish that matter on the balance of probabilities. If the Parking Operator fails to establish that a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) was properly issued in accordance with the law then it is likely that an Appeal will be allowed. If the Parking Operator does establish that a Parking Charge Notice was properly and legally issued then the burden shifts to the Appellant to establish that the notice was improperly or unlawfully issued and if the Appellant proves those matters on the balance of probabilities then it is likely that the Appeal will be allowed. However the Appeal will be dismissed if the Appellant fails to establish those matters on the balance of probabilities. The responsibility is at all times on the parties to provide the Adjudicator with the evidential basis upon which to make a decision.

    The terms of parking at the site are detailed on clear notice in the signs at the location. The signs state that "A valid UK CPM parking permit must be clearly displayed in the front windscreen at all times". The signs go on to state that by parking or remaining at this site otherwise than in accordance with the terms the driver agrees to pay a parking charge.

    In this case it is maintained by the Appellant that the permit must have become dislodged so as to have made it impossible to read any key information from it. I am satisfied that the Appellant has the responsibility of ensuring that the permit is secured to the windscreen in such a way that it will remain in place and display all the key information to anybody wishing to check the parked vehicles. I am also satisfied that the signage made it clear to the Appellant that if the permit was not properly displayed a Parking Charge Notice would be issued.

    The Appellant accepts knowledge of the terms and has previously accepted the terms by obtaining and displaying a permit. Therefore have accepted that they must display a permit in order to park at the location.

    I have only been provided with certain parts of the Appellant's lease therefore I am unable to satisfy myself of the full terms of the lease. In fact I am unable to confirm that the lease applies to this property. The Property Information Form is entirely separate and only contains information as provided by a seller of a property.

    I have considered all the issues raised by both parties in this Appeal and I am satisfied that the Parking Operator has established that the Parking Charge Notice was properly issued in accordance with the law and therefore this Appeal is dismissed.
    "
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 29th Jan 18, 9:39 PM
    • 7,654 Posts
    • 7,345 Thanks
    KeithP
    What to do now?
    Originally posted by nasescoba1985
    Prepare yourself for a deluge of debt collector's letters by reading post #4 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jan 18, 9:42 PM
    • 58,322 Posts
    • 71,854 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    As expected.

    Read threads about UKCPM court claims until your very own LBCCC from Gladstones arrives.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 29th Jan 18, 9:48 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 54 Thanks
    nasescoba1985
    Ok guys,


    Coupon , just a quickie. Have had a thorough look through my lease and nothing in my lease says the parking management company can make any changes to the common area, I.e parking company being implemented etc. Problem is my lease is the draft lease and is not dated. Obviously it has mine and my partners name on it. Will this be enough ? I just don!!!8217;t want to go all the way to court and have my case thrown out because of my lease. I have the property information form which showed the parking management company sign and is m dated 2015 to say there is no restricted parking company on site. So that should go in my favour I hope.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jan 18, 9:54 PM
    • 58,322 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    No-one can tell you for sure that it 'will be enough', but almost all cases fought here, win. And you are well prepared, better than many, and you know what sort of thing this case will turn on, in terms of facts at a hearing.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 29th Jan 18, 10:00 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 54 Thanks
    nasescoba1985
    @ coupon , great thanks. The easy option would be to pay, but I refuse to do it. I refuse to pay these scam artists money for parking in my designated space. I gave them the option and they were totally unfair in their dismissal of my reasoning for the permit falling off. I have spoken to the chairman of our residents association and he says he will be a witness and represent me in court if need be. I feel I have a good case but as you say, nothing is certain. So just ignore any letters from now ? Until I get the court letter from Gladstone’s?
    • nasescoba1985
    • By nasescoba1985 29th Jan 18, 10:33 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 54 Thanks
    nasescoba1985
    Coupon, how do I find the UK CPM court claims please ? I have downloaded a few of the Link parking claims which relates to me, I.E own space parking charge
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