Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Sil74
    • By Sil74 16th Dec 17, 1:30 PM
    • 3Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Sil74
    Britannia parking pcn
    • #1
    • 16th Dec 17, 1:30 PM
    Britannia parking pcn 16th Dec 17 at 1:30 PM
    Hi all, thanks in advance for any help you will be kindly providing.
    Briefly somebody recently went into a pub car park operated by Britannia and failed to pay for a ticket.
    The driver honestly didn't notice the signs or pay machine
    Stayed less than 20 minutes 18 to be precise which makes the pcn way out of proportion
    I myself have had these in the past, ignored them and gone away but I understood after recent rulings we are under obligation of disclosure of driver name.
    The driver would pay a reasonable amount but not the unfair 60 pounds they are asking for.
    I have read the newbies forum on pcn and see the standard template for appeal which does not admit who the driver was and is centered on poor signage.

    Questions from my side are:
    1 is that right we can still choose not to disclose the name of driver when we appeal?
    2 how do we find the full terms of the alleged contract?
    3 driver would not mind paying a small amount plus some expenses for it, say an offer of 10 pounds would well cover costs. Is this a no no to do in the appeal?
    Happy to post a photo of the pcn if it helps and thanks again
    Last edited by Sil74; 16-12-2017 at 1:57 PM.
Page 2
    • sil74
    • By sil74 19th Jan 18, 8:31 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    I was also going to include this paragraph to deny the existence of a contract and working on the signs prominence (Found some good examples but want to visit car park first for refreshing myself on the setup)




    No Contract was entered into between the Britannia Parking Group Ltd and the Driver or Registered keeper

    Although I was not the driver of the event, I would like to point out that the signs at the car park in question are unsuitable to inform drivers of the full terms and conditions of what they are entering into by physically entering the car park. Britannia Parking Group Ltd clearly relies on contract law, but does not do enough to make clear what the terms and conditions of the contract are, making it far too easy for people to unwittingly fall outside the terms of contract. It is not appropriate for a car park such as this to have such a limited amount of signs and rely on drivers to look carefully for where and how the terms are displayed. It is surely the responsibility of Britannia Parking Group Ltd to make the terms of their contract far clearer so that drivers have no doubt whatsoever of any supposed contract they may be entering into. I require Britannia Parking Group Ltd to provide evidence as to how clear the terms and conditions are and consider if the methods used are clear enough for this type of car park. I would specifically like them to look into how clear the signs are that inform drivers that ANPR cameras are in use on this site.

    Furthermore, a contract can only be considered to be entered into if enough evidence exists that it actually happened. For a contract to have been entered into the driver would have had to get out of the car, read the signs, fully interpret and understand them and then agree to them. None of which ever actually happened.

    I request that Britannia Parking Group Ltd provide concrete evidence that a contract existed between themselves and the driver on the day in question, which meets all the legal requirements of forming a contract. They should include specific things including, agreement from both parties, clarity and certainty of terms etc. If they are not met, then the contract would be deemed !!!8220;unfair!!!8221; under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999.
    • sil74
    • By sil74 29th Jan 18, 2:05 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    Hi all and thanks again for your help with this appeal. Having read a few POPLA appeal Vs Britannia I have put together the following would much appreciate anyone feedback to fine tune it and see if anything else can / need to be included. Unfortunately their NTK and rejection letter seems to be complaint with Paragraph 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 both.
    I also recently presented the NTK to the pub landlord and asked if it could be cancelled but they refused as it could not be proved the driver had been a customer on the day. They claim that the brewery is in charge of the car park, not sure if that is true and that they refund customers when genuinely customers as they claim.
    As far as the prominence of signs goes they were not noticed by the driver and myself on the day so it itself suggests they are not prominent and certainly there is no many in the car park itself and when few cars in it they easily obscured, for instance as you enter there is a sign stating it is a pay and display car park ANPR monitored but is facing one direction only, it is high on a pole and quite visible if you approach from opposite direction, however if you approach the car park itself turning on your left into it you wouldn't see it and the one facing you is lower down and less prominent, There are a few signs as well but not very big and easily missed if a car parked in front and car park not well lit. Finally there is a pay and display machine as you enter the pub through the back, not in the car park itself, but again easily missed if you enter via the beer garden or if rushing in. A few paper boards reminding customers if they have paid and displayed are by the tills but in the pub do you ever stand by a till? Also people always standing by.
    Anyway here is my appeal, I am really grateful for any help and suggestions, as for Coupon mad suggestion I will include some photos specific to the car park in question. I had to remove all links as I was banned from posting for trying to post with links. I have also some photos of the car park itself which will include in my appeal submission. Please any help highly appreciated.
    • sil74
    • By sil74 29th Jan 18, 2:24 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    Appeal on 5 points splitting it as get an error message saying message too long
    1. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself
    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.
    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:
    hxxp://imgur.com/a/AkMCN
    In the Beavis case, the 85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.
    Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:
    hxxp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eYdphoIIDgE/VpbCpfSTaiI/AAAAAAAAE10/5uFjL528DgU/s640/Parking%2Bsign_001.jpg
    This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.
    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.
    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.
    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:
    ''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operator!!!8217;s signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''
    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.
    The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:
    -archive.mozilla.org/newlayout/testcases/css/sec526pt2.htm
    As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:
    signazon.com/help-center/sign-letter-height-visibility-chart.aspx
    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2!!!8221; letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3!!!8221; or even larger.''
    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:
    .ebay.co.uk/gds/Outdoor-Dimensional-Sign-Letter-Best-Viewing-Distance-/10000000175068392/g.html
    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.
    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''
    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.
    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':
    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.
    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.
    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:
    bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2000/106.html
    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.
    So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.
    I require Britannia Parking Group Ltd to present records as to the dates and times of when the cameras at this car park were checked, adjusted, calibrated, synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images. This is important because the entirety of the charge is founded on two images purporting to show my vehicle entering and exiting at specific times. It is vital that Britannia Parking Group Ltd must produce evidence in response to these points and explain to POPLA how their system differs (if at all) from the flawed ANPR system which was wholly responsible for the court loss by the Operator in ParkingEye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed when the judge said the evidence from the Operator was 'fundamentally flawed' as the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point.
    So, in addition to showing their maintenance records, I require Britannia Parking Group Ltd in this case to show evidence to rebut this point: I suggest that in the case of my vehicle being in this car park, a local camera took the image but a remote server added the time stamp. As the two are disconnected by the internet and do not have a common "time synchronisation system", there is no proof that the time stamp added is actually the exact time of the image. The operator appears to use WIFI which introduces a delay through buffering, so "live" is not really "live". Hence without a synchronised time stamp there is no evidence that the image is ever time stamped with an accurate time. Therefore, I contend that this ANPR "evidence" from this Operator in this car park is just as unreliable as the ParkingEye system in the Fox-Jones case and I put this Operator to strict proof to the contrary.
    In addition, the unreliable/unsynchronised ANPR system used, and lack of information about the use of data, is not compliant with the BPA Code of Practice, which contains the following:
    ''21 Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR)
    21.1 You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.


    21.2 Quality checks: before you issue a parking charge notice you must carry out a manual quality check of the ANPR images to reduce errors and make sure that it is appropriate to take action. Full details of the items you should check are listed in the Operators!!!8217; Handbook.


    21.3 You must keep any ANPR equipment you use in your car parks in good working order. You need to make sure the data you are collecting is accurate, securely held and cannot be tampered with.


    21.4 It is also a condition of the Code that, if you receive and process vehicle or registered keeper data, you must:
    !!!8226; be registered with the Information Commissioner
    !!!8226; keep to the Data Protection Act
    !!!8226; follow the DVLA requirements concerning the data
    !!!8226; follow the guidelines from the Information Commissioner!!!8217;s Office on the use of CCTV and ANPR cameras, and on keeping and sharing personal data such as vehicle registration marks.''


    At this location, there are merely a couple of secret small cameras up high on the side of a building. No signs at the car park clearly tell drivers about this technology nor how the data captured by ANPR cameras will be used. This means the system does not operate in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner, and I have reason to believe that, potentially, every section of paragraph 21 is breached here. Unless the Operator can show documentary evidence otherwise, then this BPA Code of Practice breach would also point to a failure to comply with the POFA 2012 (keeper liability requires strict compliance), a failure to comply with the ICO terms of registration and a breach of the CPUTR 2008 (claiming to comply with the BPA Code of Practice when I believe it is not the case). This Operator is put to strict proof to the contrary.
    • sil74
    • By sil74 29th Jan 18, 2:26 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    in the above I had to remove the Http.www, highlighted in bold those where I had to do it otherwise wouldn't let me post it, for some I just changed http to hxxp


    Here is point 2




    2. No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice


    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).


    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.


    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).
    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:


    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.


    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:
    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined


    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement


    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs


    e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement
    • sil74
    • By sil74 29th Jan 18, 2:28 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    Finally points 3-4-5




    3. This charge is incompatible with the rights under the lease - as decided by the Appeal case of 'JOPSON V HOME GUARD SERVICES' case number: B9GF0A9E on 29th June 2016, which also held that the Beavis case does not apply to this sort of car park.



    In Beavis it was held that the purpose of a parking charge must not be to penalise drivers. Justification must depend on some other 'legitimate interest in performance extending beyond the prospect of pecuniary compensation flowing directly from the breach in question'. The true test was held to be 'whether the impugned provision is a secondary obligation which imposes a detriment on the contract-breaker out of all proportion to any legitimate interest [...] in the enforcement of the primary obligation'.


    There can be no legitimate interest in punishing authorised loading/unloading, under the excuse of a 'parking' scheme where ostensibly - and as far as the landowner is concerned - the parking firm is contracted for the benefit of the leaseholders/landholders/tenants. It is unconscionable, contrary to the requirement of good faith and 'out of all proportion to any legitimate interest' to issue a parking penalty for permitted unloading/loading by a driver who has legitimate business and rights to do so.


    These rights supersede any signs, which are of no consequence except to deter rogue unwanted drivers from leaving their vehicles when they have no business on site. This is true of any residential or business car park where tenants/leaseholders (who may be individuals or businesses) enjoy legal 'rights of way' which extend to drivers permitted to load/unload. A third party cannot unilaterally alter the terms of a tenancy agreement or a lease, nor disregard easements and rights of way that prevail in such car parks (residential or industrial).


    This question was tested recently in an Appeal case in June 2016 (transcript attached as evidence for POPLA*). Please note this is an Appeal case, decided by a Senior Circuit Judge and as such, its findings on the definition of 'parking as opposed to loading' and the findings on leaseholder/permitted visitor/loading/delivering rights of way superseding parking signs, are persuasive on the lower courts.


    Beavis did not deal with any of these matters - nor was it relevant to a 'permit' car park - but the following case and transcript I have provided, is relevant and the Judge even states that Beavis DOES NOT APPLY to this type of car park:


    Appeal case at Oxford County Court, 'JOPSON V HOME GUARD SERVICES' case number: B9GF0A9E on 29th June 2016:


    Sitting in Oxford County Court, Judge Charles Harris QC, found that Home Guard Services had acted unreasonably when issuing a penalty charge notice to Miss Jopson, a resident of a block of flats who parked in front of the communal entrance to unload furniture, rather than use her own parking space. After an initial appeal to the Independent Parking Committee was rejected, Home Guard Services sued Miss Jopson in the small claims court and won. Miss Jopson successfully appealed the case, her solicitors arguing that the charge was incompatible with the terms of the existing lease which also extended to certain rights for permitted visitors when loading/unloading. The Judge found that Laura Jopson and her fellow tenants (as well as people making deliveries or those dropping off children or disabled passengers) enjoy a right of way to the block!!!8217;s entrance and that Home Guard Services!!!8217; regulations disregarded these rights. Home Guard Services were required to pay 2,000 towards the defendant's costs


    4. No Contract was entered into between the Britannia Parking Group Ltd and the Driver or Registered keeper

    Although I was not the driver of the event, I would like to point out that the signs at the car park in question are unsuitable to inform drivers of the full terms and conditions of what they are entering into by physically entering the car park. Britannia Parking Group Ltd clearly relies on contract law, but does not do enough to make clear what the terms and conditions of the contract are, making it far too easy for people to unwittingly fall outside the terms of contract. It is not appropriate for a car park such as this to have such a limited amount of signs and rely on drivers to look carefully for where and how the terms are displayed. It is surely the responsibility of Britannia Parking Group Ltd to make the terms of their contract far clearer so that drivers have no doubt whatsoever of any supposed contract they may be entering into. I require Britannia Parking Group Ltd to provide evidence as to how clear the terms and conditions are and consider if the methods used are clear enough for this type of car park. I would specifically like them to look into how clear the signs are that inform drivers that ANPR cameras are in use on this site and how visible when approaching the car park from every angle/direction.

    Furthermore, a contract can only be considered to be entered into if enough evidence exists that it actually happened. For a contract to have been entered into the driver would have had to get out of the car, read the signs, fully interpret and understand them and then agree to them. None of which ever actually happened.

    I request that Britannia Parking Group Ltd provide concrete evidence that a contract existed between themselves and the driver on the day in question, which meets all the legal requirements of forming a contract. They should include specific things including, agreement from both parties, clarity and certainty of terms etc. If they are not met, then the contract would be deemed !!!8220;unfair!!!8221; under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999.





    5.There is no evidence provided by the operator that the contravention occurred at all, and if it did, where it occurred. Two photos of the vehicle with no landmarks to place the vehicle, merely show a car on an unidentified roadway x 2. The location is not able to be identified from those images, and the car is not shown to be near any signage with any terms & conditions, and nor are there any images of the dashboard, showing any failure to pay & display.
    The operator is put to strict proof of all aspects mentioned above.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jan 18, 9:35 PM
    • 57,564 Posts
    • 71,135 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    As far as the prominence of signs goes they were not noticed by the driver and myself on the day so it itself suggests they are not prominent and certainly there is no many in the car park itself and when few cars in it they easily obscured.

    For instance as you enter there is a sign stating it is a pay and display car park ANPR monitored but is facing one direction only, it is high on a pole and quite visible if you approach from opposite direction, however if you approach the car park itself turning on your left into it you wouldn't see it and the one facing you is lower down and less prominent.

    The few signs are sporadically placed and not very big, easily missed if a car parked in front, and this car park is not well lit.

    Finally there is a pay and display machine as you enter the pub through the back, not in the car park itself, but again easily missed if you enter via the beer garden or if rushing in. A few paper notes reminding customers if they have paid and displayed are only at the till but in the pub do you ever stand by a till? Also people always standing by.
    You need to add the above to the start of point #1, before:
    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. (etc.)
    and remove ALL of this from #1, which you've copied about ANPR (pointless at POPLA):
    I require Britannia Parking Group Ltd to present records as to the dates and times of when the cameras at this car park were checked, adjusted, calibrated, synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images. This is important because the entirety of the charge is founded on two images purporting to show my vehicle entering and exiting at specific times. It is vital that Britannia Parking Group Ltd must produce evidence in response to these points and explain to POPLA how their system differs (if at all) from the flawed ANPR system which was wholly responsible for the court loss by the Operator in ParkingEye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed when the judge said the evidence from the Operator was 'fundamentally flawed' as the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point.
    So, in addition to showing their maintenance records, I require Britannia Parking Group Ltd in this case to show evidence to rebut this point: I suggest that in the case of my vehicle being in this car park, a local camera took the image but a remote server added the time stamp. As the two are disconnected by the internet and do not have a common "time synchronisation system", there is no proof that the time stamp added is actually the exact time of the image. The operator appears to use WIFI which introduces a delay through buffering, so "live" is not really "live". Hence without a synchronised time stamp there is no evidence that the image is ever time stamped with an accurate time. Therefore, I contend that this ANPR "evidence" from this Operator in this car park is just as unreliable as the ParkingEye system in the Fox-Jones case and I put this Operator to strict proof to the contrary.
    In addition, the unreliable/unsynchronised ANPR system used, and lack of information about the use of data, is not compliant with the BPA Code of Practice, which contains the following:
    ''21 Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR)
    21.1 You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.


    21.2 Quality checks: before you issue a parking charge notice you must carry out a manual quality check of the ANPR images to reduce errors and make sure that it is appropriate to take action. Full details of the items you should check are listed in the Operators!!!8217; Handbook.


    21.3 You must keep any ANPR equipment you use in your car parks in good working order. You need to make sure the data you are collecting is accurate, securely held and cannot be tampered with.


    21.4 It is also a condition of the Code that, if you receive and process vehicle or registered keeper data, you must:
    !!!8226; be registered with the Information Commissioner
    !!!8226; keep to the Data Protection Act
    !!!8226; follow the DVLA requirements concerning the data
    !!!8226; follow the guidelines from the Information Commissioner!!!8217;s Office on the use of CCTV and ANPR cameras, and on keeping and sharing personal data such as vehicle registration marks.''

    At this location, there are merely a couple of secret small cameras up high on the side of a building. No signs at the car park clearly tell drivers about this technology nor how the data captured by ANPR cameras will be used. This means the system does not operate in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner, and I have reason to believe that, potentially, every section of paragraph 21 is breached here. Unless the Operator can show documentary evidence otherwise, then this BPA Code of Practice breach would also point to a failure to comply with the POFA 2012 (keeper liability requires strict compliance), a failure to comply with the ICO terms of registration and a breach of the CPUTR 2008 (claiming to comply with the BPA Code of Practice when I believe it is not the case). This Operator is put to strict proof to the contrary.

    Remove point #3, as that's only applicable (fairly obviously) to cases about leases/residential car parks.

    Remove point #4, as it adds nothing that's not already in #1.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • sil74
    • By sil74 31st Jan 18, 9:07 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    Thanks Coupon mad, will apply the changes you are suggesting.
    Do you think is a strong enough appeal?
    • Anilk
    • By Anilk 31st Jan 18, 10:04 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Anilk
    Appeal template failed
    Hi all,

    I parked behind the Everyman cinema in muswel Hill. Annoying thing is I tried to pay but paybyphone would not work. I received a PCN in the post as I was caught on their cameras. I pasted the template in newbies thread intoto their appeal site and received the following response (appeal declined):


    Re: Parking Charge Notice Number xxxxxx (Vehicle: Xxxxxx)
    Site: Muswell Hill - Fortis Green Road Issue date: 03/01/2018
    Britannia Parking
    Britannia House 16 Poole Hill Bournemouth Dorset BH2 5PS
    t: 03455 555 888
    f: 01202 551 199
    e: info@britpark.com
    VAT Number: 208 282 027
    30 January 2018
    Thank you for your appeal received on 13/01/2018 regarding the above detailed Parking Charge Notice.
    We have reviewed the case and considered the comments that you have made. This appeal has been considered in conjunction with the photographs and any evidence provided. Our records show that the notice was correctly issued as your vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of the Car Park.
    All of our signs are approved by the British Parking Association (BPA) before they are displayed in the car parks. The BPA has approved the signage to be adequate within the car park. We are also audited yearly to ensure that signage is maintained and updated, in line with the BPA!!!8217;s requirements. The signage clearly advises when a Parking Charge Notice will be issued and no ambiguous wording has been used.. There is also a contact telephone number stated on the signage should you require further clarification on the terms and conditions.
    We therefore consider there to be sufficient, clearly visible signage in the car park to draw your attention to the terms and conditions of the parking contract that is on offer. It is the driver!!!8217;s responsibility to ensure they have read the terms and conditions. By leaving your vehicle in the car park you have broken the terms and conditions and therefore we believe the Parking Charge Notice to be valid and correctly issued.
    Please find your POPLA code below.
    Britannia Parking have made no assumptions as to the identity of the driver, we have written to you as the vehicle!!!8217;s keeper to inform you of any outstanding contraventions on your vehicle. If you inform us of the driver!!!8217;s details we will pursue them for the Parking Charge Notice. Please be aware the identity of the driver does not affect the validity of a PCN.
    With reference to invoicing us, we are sure that you are aware that freely offered, unsolicited comments cannot be construed as professional advice, or indeed expect to receive remuneration for the same. Please be aware that the terms and conditions detail that your information may be requested and shared with the BPA, DVLA and debt recovery agents and solicitors.
    You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.



    Anyone have ideas? I wouldn!!!8217;t mind paying parking cost if their system works. The app just said !!!8220;park somewhere else!!!8221;
    Last edited by Anilk; 31-01-2018 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Left personal info on by mistake
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 31st Jan 18, 11:41 AM
    • 35,623 Posts
    • 19,852 Thanks
    Quentin
    You must start your own thread and not hijack someone else's like this.


    First read up on this in the newbies faq thread near the top of the forum where you will see how to construct a popla appeal
    • sil74
    • By sil74 2nd Feb 18, 8:34 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    Sorry, daft question, how do I include my own photos into my appeal when submitted at POPLA?
    Also Planning to submit this tonight is there anything else I should add to the points after kindly Coupon-mad provided feedback or good to go?
    • cgh01
    • By cgh01 2nd Feb 18, 9:01 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    cgh01
    You convert your Popla Appeal to PDF and insert your photo`s into the PDF , not as a link to the image .

    When submitting appeal on POPLA website follow the procedure as described Parking prankster blog.
    Found in the NEWBIES FAQ thread:

    ""These then get saved as PDFs and uploaded to POPLA under OTHER (ONLY) - do not think you only have 2000 characters in some box on the POPLA wepage!

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/new-popla-process.html ""
    • sil74
    • By sil74 2nd Feb 18, 4:47 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    Thank you chg01 will give it a go later
    • sil74
    • By sil74 12th Feb 18, 8:54 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    How long should it take for POPLA to make a decision? Also will I be informed if operator adds anything?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Feb 18, 2:22 PM
    • 2,516 Posts
    • 3,081 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    YEs, as yo know from reading the newbies thread you get told when they submit their evidence. You then rebut everything theyve done wrong.
    • sil74
    • By sil74 23rd Feb 18, 3:23 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    so Britannia submitted mid week their evidence in the POPLA appeal, usual few attachments with letters been sent so far, a reminder that they have been compliant with sub-paragraph 9 (2)(f) POFA 2012 and an aerial image of the car park with marking of where the signage is ....from reading the newbies I now rebut their evidence in support of my case. I have read a few examples and there are lots of old ones so a bit lost but will be focusing on this in the weekend. I guess my main point is the formation of a contract and the fact that the signs were not seen..... thanks again for everyone help so far
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 23rd Feb 18, 3:31 PM
    • 7,261 Posts
    • 6,782 Thanks
    KeithP
    Your main focus must be challenging every point they have made in their evidence.

    If they have not reacted to any of the points you made in your PoPLA appeal, then remind PoPla that they have accepted your point.

    Check what they say about 'sub-paragraph 9 (2)(f) POFA'.
    Are they right?
    PPCs have been known to tell fibs, or simply not understand PoFA.

    Do not try to introduce new evidence.
    Last edited by KeithP; 23-02-2018 at 3:34 PM.
    .
    • sil74
    • By sil74 23rd Feb 18, 4:01 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    Thanks Keith, here is their statement with additional supporting evidence submitted..... this includes all letter correspondence and appeals, evidence of paid for tkts on the day and a map of the car park with flagged spots where the signs are. As far as I can see as for my previous notes they were POFA compliant so my appeal was mainly surrounding the issue of contract formation and signage prominence In effect here other that stating the signs are there and point out where they are they did not provide any pictures at all.




    Please find enclosed our detailed statement for Parking Charge Notice xxxxxx

    On Sunday 3rd December 2017 vehicle xxxxx entered Rainhill !!!8211; The Victoria Hotel car park at 12:58pm. This car park uses Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR). The car park is not manned.

    No transactions for this registration were entered into the machine whilst the vehicle was in the car park between 12:58pm !!!8211; 13:16pm. No payment attempt has been made at the machine, pay by phone or to us by phone after the vehicle left. I have attached the machine data to show no attempt was made to purchase a ticket whilst the vehicle was in the car park. It is solely the drivers responsibility to ensure they have read the terms and conditions of the tariff board. The machine data is attached to show the machines were working and processing at the time the vehicle was in the car park. Additionally we allow up to 48 hours after the driver has left the car park to call to make a late payment should the driver contact us.

    We are members of the British Parking Association (BPA) and we follow their Approved Operator Scheme, the BPA Code of Practice, at all times. Section 13 !!!8211; Grace Periods, details that we must give the driver a reasonable period of time to enter the car park and purchase a ticket or leave the car park. We have a 10 minute grace period at this car park. If the driver has not purchased a ticket or left the car park by the time the 10 minute grace period has been reached, a Parking Charge Notice will be issued for breaching the terms and conditions of the car park.


    The data from the machines is processed against the pictures recorded from the ANPR camera and as no registration matching the vehicle had been entered in the machine the system generated a Parking Charge Notice. The ANPR camera only takes a picture on entry and on exit this is not a CCTV system.

    The driver has broken the terms and conditions by failing to purchase a valid ticket and therefore we believe the Parking Charge Notice to be valid and correctly issued.

    Britannia Parking is an active member of the British Parking Association (BPA) and we follow their Approved Operator Scheme, the BPA Code of Practice, at all times. Our car parks are regularly audited and our signage at this car park has been approved by the BPA. We meet all the requirements for our signage as advised under section 18 and 19 for England and Wales (or Section 28 for Scotland) of the BPA!!!8217;s Code of Practice.


    We therefore consider there to be sufficient, clearly visible signage in the car park to draw your attention to the terms and conditions of the parking contract that is on offer. By leaving your vehicle over the grace period without purchasing a ticket you have broken the terms and conditions and consequently we consider the Parking Charge Notice to be valid and correctly issued.

    We uploaded the Parking Charge Notice data on 07/12/2017 and requested DVLA Keeper details on 08/12/2017. Keeper details were added to the Parking Charge Notice on 11/12/2017 and a letter was
    Last edited by sil74; 23-02-2018 at 4:19 PM.
    • sil74
    • By sil74 23rd Feb 18, 4:03 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    this was the txt in the original PCN....


    The signage displayed at the entrance to and through the car park, states that the car park is private land operated by


    Britannia Parking (the creditor). Parking conditions apply or a Parking Charge will be incurred, along with other


    terms and conditions of the car park by which those who park in the car park agree to be bound.


    By contravening the terms and conditions set out on the signage the Parking Charge is now payable.


    You are notified under paragraph 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that the driver of


    the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking charge in full. As we do not know the drivers name or current


    address, and if you were not the driver of the vehicle at the time, you should tell us the name and current postal


    address of the driver and pass this notice to them.


    You are advised that if, after 29 days from the date given, the Parking Charge has not been paid in full and we


    do not know both the name and current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the


    Parking Charge from the registered keeper. This warning is given to you under Paragraph 9(2)(f) of schedule 4 of the


    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and is subject to our complying with the applicable conditions under Schedule 4 of


    that Act.


    Should we be provided with an incorrect address for service, we will pursue registered keeper for any Parking


    Charge that remains unpaid.


    Should we be provided with the identity of someone w ho denies they were the driver we will pursue the


    registered keeper for any Parking Charge that remains unpaid.


    Please see over for details of how to pay and what to do if you want to appeal the Parking Charge Notice




    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 23rd Feb 18, 4:04 PM
    • 7,261 Posts
    • 6,782 Thanks
    KeithP
    Remove the PCN number from your post.
    .
    • sil74
    • By sil74 23rd Feb 18, 4:19 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    sil74
    ok done thanks Keith
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

122Posts Today

1,691Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • It's the start of mini MSE's half term. In order to be the best daddy possible, Im stopping work and going off line? https://t.co/kwjvtd75YU

  • RT @shellsince1982: @MartinSLewis thanx to your email I have just saved myself £222 by taking a SIM only deal for £7.50 a month and keeping?

  • Today's Friday twitter poll: An important question, building on yesterday's important discussions: Which is the best bit of the pizza...

  • Follow Martin