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PCN on lease car

nic66
nic66 Posts: 18
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edited 16 December 2017 at 12:03PM in Parking tickets, fines & parking
I've read all the newbie threads and as many links as I can but the legalese is confusing me.

The lease company have forwarded a PCN from Euro Car Parks stating that my car was parked in Matalan for longer than the permitted 2 hrs, from 21.40 at until just after midnight. The shop would have been closed.

My query is that the event occurred 11.11.17 and the letter to the lease company was dated 7.12.17 and received 13.12.17. The lease company replied and sent details to me 13.12.17.

The lease company have written back to ECP re: Notice to Driver, asking them to address all correspondence to me They also give my details and refer to me as the driver, even though they don't actually know who the driver was. They make no mention of sending any documents to ECP.

As there is more than 14 days between the event and the PCN letter, do I use Edna Basher's letter now? Or do I give ECP 28 days to obtain the required 3 documents from the lease company? And if they do obtain them do I then wait 21 days for them to contact me before appealing?

Any help and advice appreciated. Thanks
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Comments

  • Quentin
    Quentin Posts: 40,405 Forumite
    edited 16 December 2017 at 9:23AM
    I'd you have read the newbies FAQ thread then you will have seen the advice to never reveal who was driving

    You need to edit your post to remove details of who was driving

    The ppcs monitor this forum and can use your posts against you

    The FAQ covers leased cars. Now the lease company have passed on your details then follow the appeal advice in the FAQ where there are links for leased car appeals.


    Appeal as keeper and don't reveal who was driving
  • nic66
    nic66 Posts: 18
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    Thanks Quentin

    I didn't think that I had identified myself as the driver but I've edited the post to hopefully remove any doubt.

    Is anyone able to answer the queries in my final paragraph relating to timescales?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,603
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    edited 16 December 2017 at 6:54PM
    The lease company have written back to ECP re: Notice to Driver, asking them to address all correspondence to me They also give my details and refer to me as the driver, even though they don't actually know who the driver was. They make no mention of sending any documents to ECP.

    As there is more than 14 days between the event and the PCN letter, do I use Edna Basher's letter now?

    No, definitely wait till you get your own PCN in the post, which should be a NTH within 21 days of them receiving your details as hirer.
    Or do I give ECP 28 days to obtain the required 3 documents from the lease company? And if they do obtain them do I then wait 21 days for them to contact me before appealing?

    They won't get the required documents, don't worry.

    The only thing to beware is if this leased car is a company car, you now need to add something to tell POPLA to think again if they are about to engage their new shiny template 'let's-throw-out-this-appeal' decision paragraph, that's shown in the POPLA Decisions thread only last week, posted by Edna Basher. The one where POPLA have been persuaded (guess who by, one wonders - cough - BPA?) to find that any person driving a company car is ALWAYS on company business, whether the PPC argues CPS v AJH Films or not (and in Edna Basher's firm's case, the driver wasn't even their employee!). Shocking.

    So company car, or private lease?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
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  • nic66
    nic66 Posts: 18
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    Thanks Coupon-mad, that's really helpful.

    it's an nhs lease car via a fleet management company and due to go back next month.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,603
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    edited 16 December 2017 at 7:24PM
    So she works for the NHS?

    She will need a new paragraph in the POPLA appeal then, stating that (off the top of my head):
    The driver will not be named, has not been identified as an employee (or not) of the car owner, and POPLA will not be entitled to make any finding that an unidentified driver of a leased car was driving 'on behalf of' any other body.

    To be clear, beloved POPLA Assessor:

    This is NOT a company vehicle provided to one of the drivers only, for the purposes of carrying out their duties only, and nor are the potential authorised drivers all employees of the car owner. This is certainly not a parking event that can be twisted by the operator, or POPLA for that matter, to be argued as 'carrying out duties' - at midnight!

    As such, POPLA must consider a failure to follow PoFA 2012 as relevant to the present reasoning, and must find that a lack of hirer documentation is a failure to invoke hirer liability.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
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  • nic66
    nic66 Posts: 18
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    Blimey this legal stuff is complicated. I'll wait for the NTH then and take it from there. Thanks for your replies
  • nic66
    nic66 Posts: 18
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    So I appealed online using Edna Basher's letter and Coupon-mad's additions and this is their reply:

    Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have decided to reject your appeal for the following reasons:
    - The car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) – cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their length of stay.
    - Parking at the above site is limited to 2 hours.
    - On entry to private land it is the responsibility of the driver to check for signage and ensure that your vehicle has been correctly parked.
    - Your vehicle was parked longer than 2 hours, therefore the notice was issued correctly and remains payable.

    Please make payment of £85.00 by visiting our website. Please note there is a £1.50 Admin charge for all payments. Alternatively make your cheque payable to Euro Car Parks Limited (to include a £2.50 handling charge for cheque processing) and post to Euro Car Parks Ltd, 30 Dorset Square, London, NW1 6QJ, quoting the PCN number on the reverse of the cheque. Payment can also be made using our automated telephone service on 0203 553 4559. This amount is now due and the charge will be held for 14 days to allow time to make the payment. If payment is not received within this time further charges will apply.

    You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.

    You can make an appeal to The Independent Appeals Service (POPLA) within 28 days online with the following reference number xxx. Alternatively, if you wish to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service by post a copy of the appeal application can be sent at your request. Please be advised that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case the ability to pay the parking charge at the reduced rate will be at an end. If you opt to pay the parking charge notice you will be unable to appeal to POPLA. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.

    By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

    It's like they haven't even read the appeal! Do I just send the appeal info again to POPLA and keep my fingers crossed or do I have to specify why they haven't met POFA's requirements?

    Thanks
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,603
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    Do I just send the appeal info again to POPLA and keep my fingers crossed or do I have to specify why they haven't met POFA's requirements?
    The latter. Plus the usual template points from post #3 of the NEWBIES thread. A looong appeal!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • nic66
    nic66 Posts: 18
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    Thank you Coupon-mad. I've just spent an hour reading the newbies thread again and lots of forum posts so I'll draft a PoPLA appeal and then will probably need your advice again.
    I've also checked the local council website for planning permission for the signs and cameras and can't find anything - is that relevant to the PoPLA appeal? Is it worth finding out who the landowner is?
    Thanks again
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,154
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    edited 7 February 2018 at 12:15AM
    nic66 wrote: »
    Thank you Coupon-mad. I've just spent an hour reading the newbies thread again and lots of forum posts so I'll draft a PoPLA appeal and then will probably need your advice again.
    I've also checked the local council website for planning permission for the signs and cameras and can't find anything - is that relevant to the PoPLA appeal? Is it worth finding out who the landowner is?
    Thanks again


    The lack of planning/advertising consent won't get you anywhere with PoPLA, but in my opinion should always be included. It adds fuel to the fire that the unregulated private parking industry BPA, IPC, PoPLA, IAS et al are not fit for purpose.
    You should complain to the BPA that the extra £1.50 charges are now outlawed.

    You should also complain to your MP, quoting the following comments made by MPs concerning the unregulated parking industry during last Fridays parliamentary session.

    Cowboy companies, signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued, rogue parking companies, bloodsuckers, absolute disgrace, rogue operators, unfair charges and notices, wilfully misleading, signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead, unreasonable, designed to trap innocent drivers, a curse, harassing, operating in a disgusting way, appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing, loathed, outrageous scam, dodgy practice, outrageous abuse, unscrupulous practices, the BPA is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
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    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
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