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  • FIRST POST
    • MORB
    • By MORB 15th Dec 17, 10:15 PM
    • 61Posts
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    MORB
    Judgement for Claim (in defalult) - PCM & Gladstones
    • #1
    • 15th Dec 17, 10:15 PM
    Judgement for Claim (in defalult) - PCM & Gladstones 15th Dec 17 at 10:15 PM
    Hi all,
    I have received a JfC in default on behalf of PCM from Gladstones. The matter is regarding 3 alleged parking contraventions that occurred in feb '17. I sent requests for POCs shortly after receiving the invoices initially sent my PCM (do not still have copies, but was a few lines requesting POC's), likely toward the end of May.

    I heard nothing further and presumed PCM were no longer going to to pursue the invoices. In July I left the UK and the address to which initial correspondence were sent. a family member continues to reside there, and in making preparations to return to the UK requested that they open residual mail sent to the address. Amongst the mail was the JfC (in default) dated the 20th Nov. As such no preceding correspondence were received (other letter in the pile was the LBC from Gladstones, but still no POCs!!).
    I have been out of the country and travelling for over 5 months and of no fixed abode during this time. I will be leaving the UK again for a prolonged period again in a few months but am happy to allow PCM/courts/Gladstones to correspond to the original address while this plays out. The claim is for 658 and constitutes 3 alleged contraventions, none of which have merit, and likely pertain to instances of stopping in a loading bay that had no prohibitive markings (no yellow lines -was not a parking space) and which was for the sole use of my previous employer (from whom I obviously had permission to be in the bay).

    Next steps:

    - Fill in the N244 form and return 3 copies to CCBC.
    - Including a statement of my case RATHER than a witness statement
    - Indicate that I'd wish for reimbursement from the claimant of the set aside fee
    - Pay 255.00 via cheque (how very archaic???)

    I will post up my defence shortly for critique but would in lieu of that be very grateful for any comment the great and wise here would be willing to offer?

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by MORB; 15-12-2017 at 11:59 PM.
Page 4
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 6th Apr 18, 4:38 PM
    • 1,154 Posts
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    Johnersh
    Ok well post the order on here when it comes through. It will then be easier for forumites to give a view as to the next steps.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • MORB
    • By MORB 6th Apr 18, 4:43 PM
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    MORB
    Will do.

    Will I now receive something in the post? Also, do I request that the court send me a copy of the letter Gladstones have sent?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Apr 18, 6:26 PM
    • 60,110 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes you should receive the Order confirming that the CCJ is set aside.

    If you want to see the letter G's sent to the court, write (email in fact) to ask G's for a copy, telling them your application to set aside was successful and that you now hold their client liable for your costs which you will pursue, and attach a provisional costs schedule and give them a date to pay it by, should their client now waste your time even more, by not proceeding with the claim or discontinuing.

    You want to lay down markers to be able to get that 255 back, IMHO.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MORB
    • By MORB 9th Apr 18, 1:10 AM
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    MORB
    Ok, perfect. I'll get on to that.

    I've seen a very detailed cost schedule on another thread that resulted in 1500 awarded (which was fantastic!) should I use that as my template?
    • MORB
    • By MORB 9th Apr 18, 3:59 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    MORB
    @coupon - I came across your costs schedule: bit.ly/couponcostschedule would that be sufficient or should I send LoC's very detailed cost application doc?

    I'm conscious of wanting to go back at them with the correct force.
    When I mentioned costs at the set aside hearing the DJ seemed to only think in terms of the costs Gladstones were seeking. I explained I was concerned about the prospect of discontinuance and being out of pocket to the tune of 255 but he did not reverse his initial posit hat he would not include an order to reserve costs "at this point".

    I don't want to appear impudent, given my case isn't as clear cut as others, but would like my 255 back if there are still grounds to claim them.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Apr 18, 4:50 PM
    • 60,110 Posts
    • 73,251 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would send a more straightforward costs schedule and a LBC with it, giving them 14 days to pay, and saying that if they now discontinue, you will:

    - revert to the Judge to show the unreasonableness of the conduct and request again, that order for costs that was discussed at the earlier hearing

    or in the alternative:

    - should the Judge not grant the 255 back for whatever reason, you will file a claim for that lost court fee and attendance costs for the earlier hearing, caused wholly by their client's own meritless claim and unreasonable conduct.

    State that if their client wishes to continue with the claim they must send you their Particulars of Claim along with all evidence, signs, paperwork and photographs they will rely upon, in the interests of complying with the PAP for debt claims that they ignored, in the first instance. And you give them 14 days to provide that evidence and declare if their client will be proceeding or conceding/discontinuing the claim.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-04-2018 at 4:56 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MORB
    • By MORB 10th Apr 18, 4:13 PM
    • 61 Posts
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    MORB
    Is it perfectly legitimate to send via email? Should I copy in the enquiries email address at the county court so they also have an independent record of it being sent?

    Also where they failed to serve me the letter the DJ referred and was thumbing through at the hearing, is this a breach of protocol they are required to follow?

    I was think I could send this and see what came back before I sent the LBC:

    To whom it may concern,

    As Gladstones will be aware,!my application!relating to claim xxxxxxxx at a hearing on!6/4/18 for the!judgement to be set aside!was successful.

    It was established during the hearing that Gladstones had submittted a letter in lieu of sending a representative to attend the same. This letter was not served to me despite this being a clear breach of a protocol you are no doubt very familiar, and should have complied with.!

    I am no longer at the my previous address (xxxxxxxxxx) and have now relocated to xxxxxxxxx. Please will you retrospectively send me the letter referred to by the District judge at the hearing on 6/4/18 to my new address?

    My new address is:XXXXXXX

    Any further correspondence sent to my previous UK address cannot be considered served.

    Kind regards.
    __________

    What do you think ?

    P.S - new address is not in the UK should that be pertinent.
    Last edited by MORB; 10-04-2018 at 4:18 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Apr 18, 4:23 PM
    • 8,716 Posts
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    KeithP
    Replace To whom it may concern with Dear Sirs.

    Replace Kind regards with Yours faithfully.
    .
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 10th Apr 18, 4:28 PM
    • 3,150 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    ASk for the exact detail that C-M told you to ask for..
    • MORB
    • By MORB 11th Apr 18, 5:20 PM
    • 61 Posts
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    MORB
    Ok - And sending this via email is no issue? Could they not deny receipt when sent via this method?
    Last edited by MORB; 11-04-2018 at 5:23 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Apr 18, 5:24 PM
    • 8,716 Posts
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    KeithP
    How can they? You will have proof.

    Put yourself on the .cc list and it is extremely unlikely, on the balance of probabilities, that it would be received at one email address but not at another.
    .
    • MORB
    • By MORB 11th Apr 18, 6:32 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    MORB
    Roger that!

    Ok, so how does the below read to you all:
    -------------------------------

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    As Gladstones will be aware,!my application!relating to claim xxxxxxxxx at a hearing on!6/4/18 for the!judgement to be set aside!was successful.

    It was established during the hearing that Gladstones had submittted a letter to the court in lieu of sending a representative to attend the same. This letter was not served to me despite this being a clear breach of a protocol you are no doubt very familiar, and should have complied with.!

    I am no longer at the my previous address (xxxxxxxxxx) and have now relocated to the xxxxxxxx. Please will you now send me the letter referred to by!Deputy District judge Lawrence!at the hearing on 6/4/18 as per your obligation?

    My new address is:

    xxxxxxxxxxx

    Any further correspondence sent to my previous UK address cannot, and will not,!be considered served.

    Please consider this missive!a letter before claim!Without Prejudice Save As To Costs!inviting you and your client!to discontinue on the basis that the claim has no merits.!

    You have been aware for some time that the claim brought by your client is baseless and bound to fail. However, your client has nevertheless chosen to pursue the claim this far, forcing me to draft and file a full defence, witness evidence and documents upon which I rely. In comparison, all your client has done is to file a claim so brief that it verges on being incoherent. Your client has ignored the court's order to serve to me its witness and documentary evidence, which were due well before the hearing on 06/04/18 and it is therefore in contempt of court. As a litigant in person your client's conduct!caused!me significant prejudice and this was drawn to the judge's attention

    Before you do write to me, I must make clear my position, as follows:
    1. As this is a baseless claim, and you have known that for some months I will not accept anything other than a complete, unconditional withdrawal by your client;
    2. Again as this is a baseless claim, your client has breached my rights under the Data Protection Act by requesting, processing, storing and continuing to store my data and this has caused me significant distress.!It must cease to do so immediately. My rights to bring a claim or a counterclaim are expressly reserved and I expect your client's proposals for settlement to include a sum of money in respect of damages, in return for which I will agree not to make any claim/counterclaim.
    3. I have been forced to spend a considerable amount of time and effort defending this baseless claim, including incurring direct expenses on site visits, postage, stationery and so on. I have had to spend hours researching the law and drafting a full defence and witness statement, and gathering documentary evidence. As a litigant in person, this has caused me significant distress and inconvenience. In contrast,!your client has put very little effort into particularising and pursuing its claim, even ignoring the court's directions about service of evidence.!Any proposals must include a sum of money to reflect your client's conduct and the distress and trouble caused to me.

    As a goodwill gesture, and on an entirely without prejudice basis, in order to achieve a settlement I suggest that your client makes an offer of no less than 255.00!in respect of 2 and 3 above.!

    In the meantime, my rights under the Data Protection Act are expressly reserved.

    Should settlement not be reached, I am entirely confident that my defence of the claim will succeed and I make it clear that, since the claim is clearly baseless and this has been clear to you all along, I will be seeking a punitive costs order pursuant to Rule 27.14(2)(g). This will include, but is not limited to the costs outlined below:!

    Schedule of costs

    Research and preparation of defence as litigant in person @19!per hour,
    7 hours. Total 133.00
    Printing of 3 copies of witness statement.
    Estimate 25.00.
    Ticket cost of return trip to new address abroad to attend court on 06/04/18
    66.00!
    Travel for Site visit and return 28/03/18
    (6.6 miles * 2) 13.2 * 0.45 = 5.94
    Travel via TFL!on day of hearing on 06/04/18
    2.80
    Court fees for set aside application
    255.00

    Total costs claimed 487.74

    This offer is a genuine attempt to settle the matter, not merely a bargaining position. It has value to the Defendant insofar as it presents an opportunity to avoid additional court costs and expenses.

    Please consider the above a!Letter Before Claim!giving you 14 days to pay the sum referred to as a goodwill gesture. Should your client wish!to continue with the claim they must send me their Particulars of Claim along with all evidence, signs, paperwork and photographs they will rely upon, in the interests of complying with the PAP for debt claims that they ignored, in the first instance. I will also!give your clients!14 days to provide that evidence and declare if they will be proceeding or conceding/discontinuing the claim.!

    Yours faithfully,
    xxxxxxxxx
    -------------------------------

    Thoughts?
    TIA as ever.
    Last edited by MORB; 11-04-2018 at 7:12 PM.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 11th Apr 18, 8:36 PM
    • 1,154 Posts
    • 2,189 Thanks
    Johnersh
    You cannot avoid active proceedings by leaving the jurisdiction. You can nominate service addresses only within E&W in the CPR.

    You are likely to end up with another default judgment if you're not careful. The PPC could agree to contact you by email, but the court will not. You'd be better off asking a friend to act as "post box."

    Changes of address are commonly dealt with by serving a Notice of Change form with the new address.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 12th Apr 18, 6:37 AM
    • 3,030 Posts
    • 5,073 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    You cannot avoid active proceedings by leaving the jurisdiction......The PPC could agree to contact you by email, but the court will not.
    Just a heads up on this one for anyone outside the jurisdiction at the start.

    They will attempt to serve papers outside the jurisdiction and encourage you to have the matter heard on "papers only". Clearly they want to exploit people's ignorance of the system and will play that advantage to the maximum.

    Just say no.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 12th Apr 18, 6:50 AM
    • 1,154 Posts
    • 2,189 Thanks
    Johnersh
    They will attempt to serve papers outside the jurisdiction and encourage you to have the matter heard on "papers only".
    Specific permission is generally needed to serve a claim outside the jurisdiction. That will often mean no MCOL. It is also why the PPCs try to interpret POFA as requiring an E&W service address (despite that not being a requirement).

    Bear in mind that when an acknowledgement of service is completed by the defendant, that is acceptance of "good service"
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • MORB
    • By MORB 12th Apr 18, 8:13 AM
    • 61 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    MORB
    Thanks for pointing out the issues around addresses outside jurisdiction. I'll go for the 'Post box' option for now.

    Supposing the PPC do wish to pursue the matter would that be considered a new claim? And could I then request that papers are served at my new address outside the UK (which is within the EU if relevant)?

    Other than the above, is the remainder of the body of the email appropriate to send ?
    Last edited by MORB; 12-04-2018 at 8:15 AM.
    • MORB
    • By MORB 12th Apr 18, 9:53 AM
    • 61 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    MORB
    UPDATE: I have received the set aside order for the judgement providing I provide a "fully particularised defence by 'x' date.

    I asked the judge whether I should just merge the 2 witness statement and send them, to which he said: "Yes. Send everything you wish to rely on in one document."

    Is that a particular format I should use when writing this?
    Last edited by MORB; 12-04-2018 at 11:11 AM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Apr 18, 1:51 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    A WS isnt a defence, so I would send an actual defence.

    Your email is poor - why are you sending it WP save as to costs? You WANT to show it to a judge...
    • MORB
    • By MORB 12th Apr 18, 1:59 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    MORB
    Doh - Ok, so I will remove the without prejudice save as to costs.

    I am also putting together the the defence and will post here once finished.

    This email is simply to send to Gladstones so I can see what they submitted as per C-M's advice.

    Could you perhaps be more constructive as to where it is poor other than the WP save as to cost given the purpose is as above?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Apr 18, 2:01 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    Its about 3 times teh length it needs to be. It conflates different aspects, and is quite confusing.
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