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  • FIRST POST
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Dec 17, 7:46 PM
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    rizla01
    Will they go to court or not?
    • #1
    • 9th Dec 17, 7:46 PM
    Will they go to court or not? 9th Dec 17 at 7:46 PM
    Bit of a sticky one here. Sorry its so long and drawn out.


    Daughter left parking area over alloted 2hr time because she drove her car to the takeaway (located within the parking area) and had to wait to be served. She didn't realise that counted. (Me neither tbh)

    So far, on my instruction she has not responded to any letters from PE except the one from small claims court which also asked for reasons that she contests the charge. (initially £60 if paid within...etc then went up to £120 and then threats of Court Costs Etc to be added could increase this to £250 ish) and after the letter was returned to the court she had a FINAL letter from PE offering her the opportunity of just paying £60 again 'Based on further information that we have received' and that was followed by the self same letter two weeks later.
    Not stating what the 'Further Information ' is. I.e. What, that the time clock was wrong? Wrong Car? What?

    Two days ago she received a 'Proposed Allocation to the small claims fast track service so I need to deal with this rather urgently.

    I understand that I cannot appear in court on her behalf without her being present which is not going to happen.

    Just wondered - How likely are they to pursue this.

    Any advice very gratefully received.
    Last edited by rizla01; 10-12-2017 at 12:44 AM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
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Page 9
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 5th Feb 18, 12:03 AM
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    pappa golf
    on land , not parked , funny setup

    although the request to DVLA will say exceeding parking time or time on land , which land the UK?
    Save a Rachael

    buy a share in crapita
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 8th Feb 18, 1:07 PM
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    rizla01
    We progress.

    Without Prejudice (Save as to Costs)



    Thank you for your correspondence in relation the Parking Charge xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, and subsequent county court claim, D43m34m34EX



    It should be noted that the grace period at 13.2 of British Parking Association Code of Practice is to allow motorists to enter the car park, read the terms and conditions, and exit the car park if they do not wish to be bound by them. This is only intended for motorists that wish to leave within this grace period.



    In this instance, the vehicle remained in the car park for over 2 hours 18 minutes. Therefore, reading the terms and conditions, and by remaining on site, agreed to be bound by them. This position has been supported by the British Parking Association as the correct interpretation of the grace period as per Version 6 of the Code of Practice.



    Furthermore, as noted below, you have confirmed that you had seen the signage on the date of the parking event and had been aware of the terms and conditions applicable in remaining at Greyhound Retail Park.



    The signage on site states that, !!!8220;By parking, waiting or otherwise remaining within this private car park, you agree to comply with these terms and conditions (the !!!8220;Parking Contract!!!8221 and are authorised to park, only if you follow these correctly, including making payment where directed, entering your registration details via the payment and/or permit systems. If you fail to comply, you accept liability to pay the fee for unauthorised parking (the "Parking Charge").!!!8221; (See attached).



    The signage clearly conveys that by remaining within the car park, the motorist becomes bound by the terms and conditions of parking. ParkingEye use Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras and not CCTV cameras to monitor car parks, and therefore do not monitor individual bays. This technology captures still images of vehicles entering and exiting the car park and compares this data to the maximum stay that vehicles are entitled to and, where applicable, any payment or permit that may relate to the registration captured. Our Parking Charge Notices contain detail about the parking event and time stamped images of the vehicle entering and exiting. As the vehicle remained at Greyhound Retail Park for 2 hours and 18 minutes this was a breach of the terms and conditions.



    In an effort to bring this matter to a conclusion without further cost to either party, we can confirm that we are prepared to accept the sum of £60 in settlement of the outstanding claim.



    The above offer is open for 14 days from the date of this email and payment needs to be made within that time frame. We can confirm that this matter will be closed upon receipt of this payment but that the claim against you will remain should payment not be received.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
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    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Feb 18, 1:29 PM
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    The Deep
    Why people like yourself feel you have the right to dump your car on land other people own as you please ...

    If you want someone to be angry at be angry at those who have abused the goodwill of the people who own the land.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    If this was to get to court, I would not be surprised if a judge threw it out. I see no abuse of private property here. All I see is a well known scammer failing to apply common sense, just like your good-self

    Have you seen what MPs think about PE, watch this

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41.

    Clearly PE knows it has erred, why else would it accept £60?
    Last edited by The Deep; 08-02-2018 at 1:37 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Feb 18, 12:20 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    It should be noted that the grace period at 13.2 of British Parking Association Code of Practice is to allow motorists to enter the car park, read the terms and conditions, and exit the car park if they do not wish to be bound by them. This is only intended for motorists that wish to leave within this grace period.
    They would say that, wouldn't they. Making it up as they go along.

    It actually says in the BPA CoP that the time at the start is to decide whether to STAY or go.

    STAY...or go.

    So a person takes that time on arrival to read the signs, and they decide to stay so they lock their car and it's parked and left for under two hours. No-one can reasonably conclude that the 'time to decide whether to stay or go' is suddenly gone in a puff of smoke when the patron decides to stay (and spend money) yet it remains allowed for people who leave (and don't spend money)!

    Then at the end there is of course a second period of grace for the non-parking activity. the person returns in good time to the car, gets in, after loading their shopping, then queues to leave, none of which is parking time either. And the pesky BPA CoP says that MUST be at least ten minutes in its own right...and even peskier Kelvin Reynolds of the BPA said it can be longer for disabled people:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    And even worse, the BPA CoP tells PPCs that they need to be aware that disabled people might take longer to go about their business, longer to get to machines and/or signs, and in and out of the car, etc. ''MAY WELL TAKE LONGER''...and PE must comply with that CoP.

    Tough, Parking Eye, you are stuffed and this case (and others) demonstrates that you are nasty, discriminatory money-grabbers, with no service to drivers whatsoever being provided, none at all.

    But to any reasonable interpretation, unless there is a ''red arrow with a red hand pointing to it'', flashing lights at drivers as they enter, so they can't pass until they have read it, then NO DRIVER is going to be of the understanding that the clock starts when they drive in, waaaay before they park.

    It is rubbish, won't stand up in court.

    I see they are silent about the Equality Act requirement upon them to make a reasonable adjustment of time, in advance, in anticipation of disabled visitors at large (whether the people's conditions are known about or not, is no excuse for ParkingEye applying an arbitrary time limit for all visitors).

    They didn't even mention it in their haste to offer to settle.

    Methinks they will fold before a hearing. You have the moral and legal high ground.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-02-2018 at 12:29 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
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    • paulstevens64
    • By paulstevens64 9th Feb 18, 9:50 AM
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    paulstevens64
    Latest BPA COP, JAn 2018:


    It seems that they have changed the wording slightly.


    13.1 does not apply to this case, as it is for locations where parking is not permitted.


    13.2 - Which PE cite, says nothing like what they claim!


    I assume this can be interpreted as a pre parking grace period? EG 10 mins. before any enforcement action can be taken. Because 13.4 is clearly about the grace period after parking.
    13 Grace periods


    13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission, or at locations where parking is not normally permitted they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.


    13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.


    13.2.a Vehicles are not permitted to park under the grace period in spaces designated to specific users for example Blue Badge holders. At all times vehicles must have appropriate and valid permit e.g Blue Badge on display for enforcement officer to inspect.


    13.3 You must tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.


    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Feb 18, 12:23 PM
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    rizla01
    Thats interesting? Hadn't spotted that change.

    Am I not bound only by the COP at the time of the event, tho?
    Last edited by rizla01; 09-02-2018 at 12:30 PM.
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    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Feb 18, 12:38 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    At time of event THEY are bound by it, not you.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 9th Feb 18, 12:38 PM
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    Castle
    Thats interesting? Hadn't spotted that change.

    Am I not bound only by the COP at the time of the event, tho?
    Originally posted by rizla01
    Yes, version 6, which was replaced by version 7 in January of this year.
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Feb 18, 1:08 PM
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    rizla01
    At time of event THEY are bound by it, not you.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001

    But surely their case for prosecution would rely on the rules in force at the time.
    I would expect them to argue that later changes to the rules cannot be applied to any case.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
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    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Feb 18, 1:23 PM
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    Umkomaas
    But surely their case for prosecution would rely on the rules in force at the time.
    I would expect them to argue that later changes to the rules cannot be applied to any case.
    Originally posted by rizla01
    That's what nosferatu is saying. They cannot retrospectively apply new rules from a new Code of Practice - but it won't stop them trying.

    They won't be 'prosecuting' in its strict legal sense - they are not a prosecuting authority, they're simply a private parking company!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Feb 18, 2:24 PM
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    rizla01
    That's what nosferatu is saying. They cannot retrospectively apply new rules from a new Code of Practice - but it won't stop them trying.

    They won't be 'prosecuting' in its strict legal sense - they are not a prosecuting authority, they're simply a private parking company!
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Sorry. Should have made it clearer.
    The changes in the newest COP are of benefit to me as I have underlined.
    Whilst being a welcome change I am not sure that i can use th changes retrospectively in my defence.

    Clause 13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.

    This clause was re-worded in the 2018 revision to:-

    Clause 13.2 and 30.2 - If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.
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    • paulstevens64
    • By paulstevens64 9th Feb 18, 3:26 PM
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    paulstevens64
    Sorry if I caused any confusion.


    Below is V6 valid from 2015 to Jan 2018.


    13.2 is still nothing like the quote from PE, so they need reporting, and a robust letter back quoting the actual words.


    This 13.2 clearly says "You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go."


    Whilst this does not define 10 mins, there is a minimum of 10 mins at the leaving end (13.4) so 10 mins would seem reasonable.


    13 Grace periods
    13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.






    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Feb 18, 3:37 PM
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    rizla01
    Sorry if I caused any confusion.


    Below is V6 valid from 2015 to Jan 2018.


    13.2 is still nothing like the quote from PE, so they need reporting, and a robust letter back quoting the actual words.


    This 13.2 clearly says "You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go."


    Whilst this does not define 10 mins, there is a minimum of 10 mins at the leaving end (13.4) so 10 mins would seem reasonable.


    13 Grace periods
    13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.






    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
    Originally posted by paulstevens64

    Hi Paul
    I agree. A reasonable time should be 10 mins and I think, in view of the later release, that would be the length of time that any court SHOULD agree to.
    I was just clarifying that I would not be able to use the later wording as a fact. Thats all.
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    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Feb 18, 4:24 PM
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    Umkomaas
    I've not read back over the entire thread, but your last few posts seem to be concentrating on the grace period to enter the car park, find a space, read the signage, then decide whether to stay or go. At the date of the parking event, this was described by the CoP as a 'reasonable' grace period, now helpfully determined by the BPA (albeit in their new CoP) as a minimum of 10 minutes, so it could not have been any less at the date of event - PE will need to put forward a very good case to a Judge for any less than 10 mins.

    So there's your first 10 mins, then you have to factor in the further grace period of a minimum of 10 minutes to leave the site. That makes potentially a total of a minimum of 20 minutes to factor in to your argument. Are you doing that?

    As I said, I've not read right the way back through the thread and you might have already accommodated the two periods.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

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    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 10th Feb 18, 1:58 PM
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    rizla01
    I've not read back over the entire thread, but your last few posts seem to be concentrating on the grace period to enter the car park, find a space, read the signage, then decide whether to stay or go. At the date of the parking event, this was described by the CoP as a 'reasonable' grace period, now helpfully determined by the BPA (albeit in their new CoP) as a minimum of 10 minutes, so it could not have been any less at the date of event - PE will need to put forward a very good case to a Judge for any less than 10 mins.

    So there's your first 10 mins, then you have to factor in the further grace period of a minimum of 10 minutes to leave the site. That makes potentially a total of a minimum of 20 minutes to factor in to your argument. Are you doing that?

    As I said, I've not read right the way back through the thread and you might have already accommodated the two periods.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Hi.
    Yes the two Grace periods are taken into account in my arguments.
    As WELL as inadequate signage and a double park.
    But STILL they argue!!
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    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 10th Feb 18, 6:57 PM
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    rizla01
    Any point in posting my reply to PE on here?
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
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    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Feb 18, 12:10 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes please.

    Here's a summary I wrote earlier for someone fighting a PE CCJ, same discrimination issue:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73860510#post73860510
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
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    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 11th Feb 18, 10:45 AM
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    rizla01
    How does this come across?

    Dear Sir/Madam

    Thank you for your correspondence in relation to the Parking Charge xxxxxxxxxxx, and subsequent county court claim, XXXXXXXX

    By way of reply, please permit me to draw your attention to a couple of points that you have raised.
    You stated:-
    1) It should be noted that the grace period at 13.2 of British Parking Association Code of Practice is to allow motorists to enter the car park, read the terms and conditions, and exit the car park if they do not wish to be bound by them.
    Unless I am mistaken, it is Section 13.1 that you are probably referring to which actually says:-

    !!!8216;Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park, but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.!!!8217;

    Whereas section 13.2 that you incorrectly referred to clearly states: - the !!!8216;Grace Period!!!8217; is to enable a motorist reasonable time to decide whether to stay or not.
    Please note-: This period of time applies to ALL motorists, whether or not they decide to park, and NOT as you claim.

    The !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; referred to is in ADDITION to the 2 hour parking event, in the same way that as according to 13.4 of the BPA Code of Practice V.6, a !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; AFTER the parking event has taken place, should also be given and that period should be a minimum time of 10 minutes.
    It is now recognised (V. 7 of the B.P.A. Code of Practice) that the !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; prior to parking must also be a minimum of 10 minutes and there is no reason to suggest that period should be any less in previous years.

    Therefore all motorists using this area are allowed 10 minutes, PLUS two hours free parking, plus a further 10 minutes making a sum total of 2 hours and 20 Minutes.
    Clearly you can see that the 2 hours 18 minutes that you claim my car was in the Greyhound Parking area , is well within that time frame in which case I see absolutely no obligation to make any payment to your Company, whatsoever as there is no debt owing. I am totally confident that any judge would draw the same conclusion and I hope you will now see that further continuance of this matter is completely futile and without value.

    If not, then please allow me to reiterate the following failings on your behalf, for the judge to also consider when making his decision:-

    Version 6 Section 18.3 BPA Code of Practice states:-
    a) You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site
    You have failed to satisfy this condition as your signage does NOT cover the whole site. There are many areas, especially where I parked my car and other areas nearby that are completely devoid of any parking signs.

    b] Signs must be conspicuous
    Signage is placed far too high to be considered conspicuous All signs shown on your signage map are approx 8ft off the ground. Indeed one sign shown on your signage map doesn!!!8217;t even exist.

    c) Easy to see read and understand.
    I was only able to read the terms & conditions on your signs with the use of my Iphone by taking a photograph and enlarging it.

    Your email also goes on to say:-
    2) Furthermore, as noted below, you have confirmed that you had seen the signage on the date of the parking event and had been aware of the terms and conditions applicable in remaining at Greyhound Retail Park.

    As stated in my last letter: Doe to the grossly inadequate signage layout, it was only on return to my car that I became aware of ANY sign. I then proceeded to move my car from the car park to the KFC Restaurant area where I was WAITING for an extended period of time before being served. After which time, I queued to leave the car park, as soon as I was able.

    You also add that:-
    3) The signage clearly conveys that by remaining within the car park, the motorist becomes bound by the terms and conditions of parking.
    !!!8216;Clearly conveys!!!8217; is one thing your signage evidently fails to do, since in order to be bound by the terms &conditions on your signage the motorist must reasonably be expected to be able to read those terms & conditions. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure that is feasible
    .
    Also, as you will be fully aware, moving my car to a different area; and especially one that has no parking bays and no parking signs (and therefore cannot be considered part of the parking (For shopping) area), constitutes a second parking event and this too, is covered by further legislation ensuring that you are forbidden to count the time spent as one parking event.

    Schedule 4 of the POFA that the notice must relate only to a single period of parking !!!8211; (whether a case relies on that Act or not - the intention of Parliament was not to allow private parking firms to add two parking events together, as happened when the car was moved away from the shops to a completely unsigned area such as the KFC, in order to concoct a parking charge as if the driver overstayed when shopping!)
    There is definitely no valid case to answer here so I respectfully suggest that you reconsider your position in this matter. There really is no point in wasting any more time continuing with this.
    Indeed if you still wish to pursue this matter through the courts, on top of your own costs, be aware that I will need to take the morning away from very well paid job and, in order to assist the judge in arriving at a fair decision.I will also need to employ the services of a videographer, for evidence providing purposes, to film the view from a car entering and parking, filming footage of the entrance and the entire site to clearly demonstrate where signage is placed and where it is missing

    So finally, In light of the above, along with the other points raised in my defence, I have CLEARLY demonstrated that this claim has no realistic prospect of success and the claimant is therefore, once again, invited to withdraw the claim with no order for costs. This is a "drop hands" offer to settle, with each party bearing their own costs. The offer is available for acceptance for a period of 14 days from the date of this email.

    I look forward to your reply
    Last edited by rizla01; 11-02-2018 at 3:25 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
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    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 11th Feb 18, 11:19 AM
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    The Deep
    I visited a PE controlled car park at Morrissons, Reading, last week.

    The signage was appalling, lines and lines of text in very small text, unpunctuated, unparagraphed, in a faint pastel colour, (why not black).

    If one were to ask 100 people if they would read it all before buying a tin of beans, I doubt very much if 90% would say that they would,

    On this basis, if a reasonable man told a reasonable judge that the sign imposed an unreasonable burden on a motorist, would he agree?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 11th Feb 18, 3:25 PM
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    DoaM
    @post #178 ... it's a long thread ... have you already acknowledged being the driver? If not then your point a) gives the game away.
    Diary of a madman
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  • RT @mmhpi: Third time lucky? After being delayed twice, tomorrow MPs are due to debate our #RecoverySpace proposals in parliament. @helen_u?

  • Just a quick note. I've been overwhelmed by the strength of support by my campaign to stop facebook fake ads today? https://t.co/KexhjVVznY

  • RT @mmhpi: On the eve of tomorrow's #RecoverySpace debate in parliament, we just delivered our 10,000 letters to the Chancellor. People in?

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