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  • FIRST POST
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Dec 17, 7:46 PM
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    rizla01
    Will they go to court or not?
    • #1
    • 9th Dec 17, 7:46 PM
    Will they go to court or not? 9th Dec 17 at 7:46 PM
    Bit of a sticky one here. Sorry its so long and drawn out.


    Daughter left parking area over alloted 2hr time because she drove her car to the takeaway (located within the parking area) and had to wait to be served. She didn't realise that counted. (Me neither tbh)

    So far, on my instruction she has not responded to any letters from PE except the one from small claims court which also asked for reasons that she contests the charge. (initially 60 if paid within...etc then went up to 120 and then threats of Court Costs Etc to be added could increase this to 250 ish) and after the letter was returned to the court she had a FINAL letter from PE offering her the opportunity of just paying 60 again 'Based on further information that we have received' and that was followed by the self same letter two weeks later.
    Not stating what the 'Further Information ' is. I.e. What, that the time clock was wrong? Wrong Car? What?

    Two days ago she received a 'Proposed Allocation to the small claims fast track service so I need to deal with this rather urgently.

    I understand that I cannot appear in court on her behalf without her being present which is not going to happen.

    Just wondered - How likely are they to pursue this.

    Any advice very gratefully received.
    Last edited by rizla01; 10-12-2017 at 12:44 AM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

Page 13
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 15th Jul 18, 9:50 PM
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    rizla01
    So would anyone like to cast an eye over the end product?
    I did post an earlier version but have now amended it.
    Last edited by rizla01; 15-07-2018 at 10:55 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 16th Jul 18, 12:58 PM
    • 2,823 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    We're now on another page, so I would suggest showing us an up to date draft, rathter than hoping people will go backa page or so.
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 16th Jul 18, 5:17 PM
    • 6,868 Posts
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    rizla01
    It was posted on here for two days and no answer so I assumed I must have upset someone.
    I am hoping it is complete now as this has gone on far too long. had I have known all the problems I would have paid the 60 and be done with it. TBH..

    Obv I wont inc all the attachments but suffice to say there are around 15 - 20 photos.


    In the xxxxxxxxxx County Court
    Case No. xxxxxxxxxxx

    In the Matter of:

    Parking Eye LTD (Claimant)
    v
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Defendant)

    Witness Statement


    1. I am xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxof xxxxxxxxxxxxx defendant in this matter.

    2. This claim is denied in its entirety. I assert that I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all, for the following reasons, any one of which is fatal to the Claimant's case.

    i. The claimant, with this case fails to prove that the vehicle was actually parked for the duration.
    ii. The period of parking consists of two separate parking events plus an unknown length of time spent travelling between parking spaces and not parked.
    iii. The period of 2 hours was not exceeded when grace periods are taken into account.
    iv. The signage does not offer a contract with the motorist
    v. The parking area is not sufficiently signed leaving many large areas where signage is not visible.

    Additional material enclosed for reference purposes:

    A1 Areas not covered by signage
    Photos No 1&2 show view to left and right of where car was parked and No3 shows forward view (Inc where sign SHOULD be according to Claimants Signage map) No4 shows the view of the store, 5 the outer area of KFC and 6 the view driving to KFC.

    A2 Legislation extracts for reference purposes.
    Includes referenced extracts from British Parking Association Code of Practice plus Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012

    A3 KFC Signage and photographs
    showing all areas around the KFC takeaway

    A4 Arial view of car parking area showing signage areas plus route taken to park car.
    I have used a screenshot from Google maps in order to demonstrate the area or parking, the areas NOT signed and the route taken to park for the first time at the rear of the car park and then the route to the KFC where I parked a second time, before exiting. I have also included 6x photos of the route taken to where I parked initially, showing no signs visible once having missed the entrance sign, plus photos of where I parked. The last photograph shows the sign that is supposed to be pointing rearwards but is clearly not.


    i. The claimant, with this case fails to prove that the vehicle was actually parked for the duration


    3. The Claimant is unable to prove this due to the fact that the system in place is an automatic number plate recognition system (ANPR) which takes note of entry and exit periods only and not the duration of any parking event.

    4. Time spent moving from one area (first parking event) to another area (KFC !!!8211;second parking event) and during a busy period, is ignored. This is completely unfair to the motorist as it would be impossible to determine the time taken to pass between the two outlets and it is clear that the motorist needs to drive their car in order to get served at KFC. This has to differentiate this car park from a simple parking area where a single ANPR camera is more appropriate.

    ii. The period of parking consists of two separate parking events plus an unknown length of time spent travelling between parking spaces and NOT parked.

    5. It should be noted in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 (whether a case relies on that Act or not) that the clear intention of Parliament was to not allow private parking firms to add two parking events together in order to concoct a parking charge as if the driver overstayed when shopping and as has clearly happened in this case.

    6. Schedule 4: Section 7 Para 3:- The notice must relate only to a single period of parking Note: Please refer to enclosed and highlighted section of Protection of Freedom Act 2012 I have included in A2 legislation material used for the courts reference


    iii. The period of 2 Hours was not exceeded when grace periods are taken into account


    7. According to the British Parking Association Code Of Practice Version 7 - January 2018

    8. Section 13.2
    If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

    9. Section 13.4
    You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes

    10. This would easily cover the 18Minutes total overstay. Note: Please refer to enclosed highlighted section of the relevant British Parking Association Code Of Practice Version 7 Section 13 included in A2 - Legislation material used for the courts reference.






    iv. Signage does not offer a contract with the motorist.



    11. The British Parking association Code of Practice Section 18.Para 3. states:- You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. This claim is for breach of contract. However, it is denied any contract existed as one needs to first read the signs before parking and before any contract can exist.

    12. The Claimant states, in their Particulars of Claim, that the signage is !!!8216;clearly displayed!!!8217; but this is not agreed. Thus, the necessary elements of offer and acceptance to form a contract were not present. Note: Please now refer to A4 - Arial view of car parking area showing signage areas plus route taken to park.

    . v. Signage not clearly visible and is inadequate.


    BPA The British Parking association Code of Practice Section 18.Para 3. states:-:- Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.

    13. Although the Claimant has provided a signage map, many of their signs are positioned in such a way as to create !!!8216;entrapment zones!!!8217; where signage is not clearly visible as shown on my map of the location outlined in yellow, This means that the entire rear section of the car park is unsigned.

    14. The elements of offer, acceptance and consideration both ways have therefore not been satisfied and so no contract can exist. The Claimant is put strictly to proof that this is not the case


    15. The British Parking association Code of Practice Section 18. Para 3. states: - The operator MUST Keep a record of where all the signs are

    16. The rearmost centre sign on their own signage map is actually pointing in the opposite direction to that indicated as can be seen from the photographs that I have included.



    17. This means that the entire rear of the car park is completely devoid of any readable signage and therefore the Claimant is in breach of the Code of practice that governs their profession. Note: Please refer to A1 - Areas not covered by signage. (Circled in Yellow on Photo No3 ) The Claimant is put strictly to proof that this is not the case

    18. Please see attachment A4 !!!8211; Arial view of car parking area showing signage area plus route taken to park in which I have tried to demonstrate that no signs can be seen whilst navigating the car park on the way to park, parking or after having parked. Note that the part of Car Park map outlined in yellow, are additional areas that were added to the original car park and have never had signage installed.

    19. At no time before and whilst parking was I aware of any parking signs. There were no signs in front or behind or to either side of where I parked as can clearly be seen. There is a red brick wall that I walked alongside to which signs could easily be affixed but there were none. This can be seen in attachment A1 !!!8211; Areas not covered by signage

    20. After leaving the store and before driving to KFC, I did spot a parking sign but as I had only taken 1hour 45 minutes I naturally took no particular notice of this sign. Not one parking sign was visible on the way to KFC. Please see A3 - KFC Signage and Photographs

    21. Due to the number of vehicles in the park at this lunch time, it took a while to reach KFC where there was a queue. I joined this queue of traffic and was therefore NOT parked up. I think the court would agree that it would be unfair to add this time to the time that I was parked as the Claimant clearly has. Had I known that that would happen I would not have stopped at KFC

    22. I maintain that It is perfectly reasonable to suppose that KFC is outside of the parking area as clearly there are no restricted parking signs anywhere in the vicinity of the KFC restaurant and even the road surface is differently coloured

    23. There are however, two signs relating to parking, where one might reasonably expect parking restrictions to be mentioned but there are none. I have included a photograph of both signs. Note: Please refer to A- KFC Signage & Photographs. The smaller sign reads thus:-



    24.






    with the KFC Logo in the bottom right corner.


    25. The other parking sign says :-
    !!!8216;Park up bay. Parking Only. Help us keep our community tidy!!!8217;
    then explains further about keeping the environment litter free Etc. and is shown in the included photographs, but here once again, absolutely no mention of any restrictions of parking limits

    26. I parked my car in the allotted space for another 5 - 10 minutes whilst waiting for my food. This would constitute a second and entirely separate parking event as covered in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 as mentioned earlier.

    27. I believe also that the Claimant is in breach of The Information Commissioner!!!8217;s Office Code of Practice for Surveillance Cameras which states:- Anyone who processes personal information must comply with eight principles of the Data Protection Act, one of which is - Adequate, relevant and not excessive.

    28. Although not tested in the Beavis case, clearly the Claimant has been 'excessive' in using unjustified surveillance 24/7 over a location where takeaway users are not reasonably informed that their shopping 2 hour parking time is still being applied while they stop and eat, despite the lack of signs in what can easily be mistaken for a completely separate section.

    29. Excessive and unjustified surveillance or unfairness of processing data contrary to statute law is illegal. I put the Claimant to strict proof of their impact assessments undertaken regarding this site, before enforcement began.

    30. I would like to draw the courts attention to the photographs of the signage at the entrance (Route taken to park) and attest that any driver would be unable to read any such sign in the seconds taken to enter the car park and that their attention would have been taken up with negotiating the safe entry to the site and not reading terms and conditions.

    31. Included photographs show the location of the signs at the time of the alleged offence and one can see from where I was parked at the rearmost section of the car park, that the nearest sign is not sufficient to meet the requirements as stated in the BPA Code of Practice, (which Beavis case found to be legally binding on parking operators), and as such the Claimant has failed to comply with their own Code of Practice.

    32. These are my reasons for refuting the claim made by the Claimant who I believe to be in breach of the British Parking Association Code of Practice and the Protection of Freedom Act 2012, both of which they themselves rely upon to bring this case to court .

    33. In summary, the signage does not form any contract with the driver, the 18 Minutes overstay is covered by !!!8216;Grace periods!!!8217; and that a double parking event took place.

    34. For all of the reasons stated above the defendant asks that the learned judge utilise their discretionary powers of case management and strike out this claim as vexatious and frivolous.


    STATEMENT OF TRUTH

    I believe the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.
    SIGNED........!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8 230;!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8230;.
    xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Dated this 14th day of July 2018
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 16th Jul 18, 6:24 PM
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    rizla01
    And from THIS photograph (google) is it not reasonable to imagine that the KFC car Park is separate (and therefore not controlled), to the main area?

    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jul 18, 6:32 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,604 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    It was posted on here for two days and no answer so I assumed I must have upset someone.
    Not at all! Have you SEEN how busy this forum is, and it's the Summer so regulars are likely to all be away on holiday at some point.

    I've already commented, you have great evidence photos and YES absolutely, the road markings are different and there are no PE signs. So there is no contract or licence relating to that area IMHO and any decent Judge should see what we see.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 16th Jul 18, 6:42 PM
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    rizla01
    Its OK CM. I do realise how busy you are, trust me. i moderate on a Couple of sites as well as running two Freecycle sites

    After what has been a harrowing time for me (What with all my Daughters problems) i expect you will understand just how desperate I am to get this dealt with and get on with MY life - whats left of it Lol.

    I have struggled with this. It has been hard work for me and knowing as I do now, I would have paid up ages ago, despite my principles. I

    Any comment on the layout? i.e. is that the usual / an acceptable way to present the WS?
    Last edited by rizla01; 16-07-2018 at 6:51 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Jul 18, 8:53 PM
    • 36,282 Posts
    • 20,532 Thanks
    Quentin
    #2 in the Newbies FAQ thread has links showing how to set out all court documents.

    Ignore the contents but follow the way it's been set out
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 16th Jul 18, 9:15 PM
    • 6,868 Posts
    • 7,480 Thanks
    rizla01
    Such a treasure Quentin Lol.
    Last edited by rizla01; 16-07-2018 at 10:28 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    • 36,282 Posts
    • 20,532 Thanks
    Quentin

    Any comment on the layout? i.e. is that the usual / an acceptable way to present the WS?
    Originally posted by rizla01
    Errrrrrr????

    You asked about the layout.

    You were advised where to find out about the layout.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th Jul 18, 10:05 PM
    • 8,026 Posts
    • 7,882 Thanks
    KeithP
    250 posts here. Easy to see why.

    That doesn't of course include the many that Rizla has deleted.

    And before you ask Rizla, no I have nothing useful to add to Quentin's excellent comprehensive guidance.
    .
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 16th Jul 18, 10:29 PM
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    rizla01
    Actually I posted that following Nosferatu's comment and was awaiting his reply.
    No Keith. I wont ask you, be assured.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jul 18, 10:29 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,604 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes the layout is fine, WS is an easy stage, the story in your own words, each point numbered, and with a statement of truth at the bottom. And this is where you file all the evidence you wan to rely on at the hearing, and you have good photos.

    Don't doubt yourself, may as well see it through, and your pictures are good evidence.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 16th Jul 18, 11:52 PM
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    rizla01
    Thats all I wanted.

    Thank you CM
    Fingers crossed now.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Jul 18, 10:13 AM
    • 36,282 Posts
    • 20,532 Thanks
    Quentin
    Such a treasure Quentin Lol.
    Originally posted by rizla01
    Nice edit.

    No chance of any apology then for your unnecessarily unpleasant personal attacking post!
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 17th Jul 18, 10:43 AM
    • 6,868 Posts
    • 7,480 Thanks
    rizla01
    Nice edit.

    No chance of any apology then for your unnecessarily unpleasant personal attacking post!
    None deserved.
    There was no need for you to comment but you could not help yourself, could you, Quentin.

    See my QUESTION and see CM's RESPONSE
    .
    Was THAT so difficult for you to do?
    Last edited by rizla01; Yesterday at 10:45 AM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Jul 18, 11:17 AM
    • 36,282 Posts
    • 20,532 Thanks
    Quentin
    Wonder why you decided your post #248 "deserved" to be edited then??
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 17th Jul 18, 2:05 PM
    • 2,823 Posts
    • 3,516 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    250 posts for a pretty simple topic, 95% covered elsewhere...

    As said. Pics are good.
    Im away on business, so very busy. Sorry that 2 days didnt meet your SLA, I will of course make service credits next billing period...
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 17th Jul 18, 6:09 PM
    • 6,868 Posts
    • 7,480 Thanks
    rizla01
    Haha.
    Thanks nosferatu1001
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

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