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  • FIRST POST
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Dec 17, 7:46 PM
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    rizla01
    Will they go to court or not?
    • #1
    • 9th Dec 17, 7:46 PM
    Will they go to court or not? 9th Dec 17 at 7:46 PM
    Bit of a sticky one here. Sorry its so long and drawn out.


    Daughter left parking area over alloted 2hr time because she drove her car to the takeaway (located within the parking area) and had to wait to be served. She didn't realise that counted. (Me neither tbh)

    So far, on my instruction she has not responded to any letters from PE except the one from small claims court which also asked for reasons that she contests the charge. (initially £60 if paid within...etc then went up to £120 and then threats of Court Costs Etc to be added could increase this to £250 ish) and after the letter was returned to the court she had a FINAL letter from PE offering her the opportunity of just paying £60 again 'Based on further information that we have received' and that was followed by the self same letter two weeks later.
    Not stating what the 'Further Information ' is. I.e. What, that the time clock was wrong? Wrong Car? What?

    Two days ago she received a 'Proposed Allocation to the small claims fast track service so I need to deal with this rather urgently.

    I understand that I cannot appear in court on her behalf without her being present which is not going to happen.

    Just wondered - How likely are they to pursue this.

    Any advice very gratefully received.
    Last edited by rizla01; 10-12-2017 at 12:44 AM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
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Page 12
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jul 18, 12:38 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Prove the treatment and the cancer diagnosis and just expand upon the after-effects in the WS and specify if she is on any medication for anxiety. The you explain how the effect on her daily life (physically and mentally) has continued for xx months since her chemo/radiotherapy and is unlikely to disappear within 12 months, therefore her protected characteristics meet the definition of disability under the EA.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 06-07-2018 at 12:40 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
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    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 7th Jul 18, 6:31 AM
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    IamEmanresu
    Prove the treatment and the cancer diagnosis and just expand upon the after-effects in the WS and specify if she is on any medication for anxiety. The you explain how the effect on her daily life (physically and mentally) has continued for xx months since her chemo/radiotherapy and is unlikely to disappear within 12 months, therefore her protected characteristics meet the definition of disability under the EA.
    While it will be heartfelt no doubt, the court rules look for evidence from a medical practitioner such as a GP. If there is a recent GP letter

    but to demonstrate those facts with evidence, is difficult.
    All court decisions are evidence led so either get some, or leave it out.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 7th Jul 18, 9:46 AM
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    rizla01
    I think I will have to skip that angle anyway as getting evidence from my Daughter is going to prove difficult.

    She doesn't like the subject even mentioned so getting her to dig up records isn't a good idea perhaps.
    Lets just hope that the facts of the case are sufficient.
    Last edited by rizla01; 07-07-2018 at 2:03 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Jul 18, 4:52 PM
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    rizla01
    I am trying to put together a defence for an 'On Paper' hearing and am needing a little guidance.
    Most defences I have seen are fully numbered and in order but as a lay-person, wouldn't a general defence letter go down better or do I need to follow strict procedure?
    Here is a sample of my defence and i am very unsure how to work out the bits to extract and how to lay it out.
    Any help her would enable me to move forward a bit - Thanks.


    ..
    .................A few days later I received notice from Parking Eye Ltd informing me that I had apparently over stayed my permitted parking time of 2 hours by 18 minutes. I was very surprised to receive this as I was not aware of any parking limitations in that car park. I returned to the car park the following day to see how it is possible I could have missed that.

    I parked up in the same bay that I used when I visited on the 19th and was not immediately aware of any signs relating to parking at this spot and I then walked all the way back to Matalan and although if actually looking for the signs, I could spot them, if you bear in mind I had three young girls in tow, it is not surprising that they were missed. There are no signs nearby the route that I took.

    They are certainly not immediately obvious as I understand they are required to be, according to the BPA Code of Practice which I understand all Parking Companies such as Parking Eye Ltd have to abide by. I also note that the !!!8216;Grace Period!!!8217; allows for stopping and reading and digesting of rules and regulations as well as a reasonable time to be given to exit from the car park. Surely my 18minutes would not exceed the permitted time allowed and if you also take into account that I actually left the parking area approx 25 minutes before the exit photo was taken as I believe the area that is KFC is outside of the parking zone since it isn!!!8217;t a shop, there are no parking bays and certainly no signage claiming it as the parking area related to on the signs in the car park.
    Last edited by rizla01; 09-07-2018 at 5:19 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Jul 18, 6:17 PM
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    KeithP
    When you wrote your opening post in this thread, early last December, this was already a defended case.

    Can you please remind us why you are now writing a Defence?
    .
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Jul 18, 6:32 PM
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    rizla01
    CM, I really am going to need a bit of help here. I know that you are busy but I am totally lost.

    So much so that I feel it would be easier to throw myself at the mercy of PE and see what they wil accept because what I seem to be reading is that I wil be wasting my time defending it and from what I can tell my (Her) witness statement needs to include all the correct terminology and citing various cases and I dont have a clue where to look.
    If you, or anyone else cant help then I understand.

    Is something like this example perfectly acceptable or should I refer to the various sections of the BPA COP

    I believe that this ticket was issued unfairly. I am not liable for the amount payable because:

    1.PEs own photographic evidence show it is near impossible to read the small wording on the sign, particularly at the height it is mounted at over 2 meters above the ground, with a non-functioning street lamp / no lighting at all.

    2.Entrance to the parking was “pitch-black” due to insufficient lighting, , making signs essentially hidden from view. I could not be bound by a contract I have not seen.

    3.Principle has demanded PE to cancel any charges, yet not adhered.

    4.The signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

    5. PE has also not proved authority of the landowner to issue parking charge notices - a requirement of the BPA Code of Practice, and Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 to which PE must adhere. PE has not provided evidence to demonstrate authority to issue parking charges on this land in the form of a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of contract between PE and landowner.

    6. It is denied that the signs used by this claimant can have created a fair or transparent contract with a driver in any event. The signs were insufficient in terms of their distribution, lighting hence incapable of binding the driver, which distinguishes this case from the Beavis case.

    7. Unreasonable fine which cannot be justified as no such loss of earnings could have been accrued.

    8. Further, the charge is an unenforceable unfair contract with reference to The Consumer Rights Act 2015, para 62.4 - requirement of good faith that adequate notice was given to motorists of the ‘terms’. With reference to Schedule 2 Part 1 para 6, the charge is vastly disproportionate to any alleged interest and nothing other than a punitive sanction.

    9. It is submitted that the Claimant is merely an agent acting ‘on behalf of’ the landowner who would be the only proper claimant. Strict proof is required of a chain of contracts leading from the landowner to this Claimant, to allow them the right to form contracts and to sue in their name.

    10.The Defendant denies that the driver would have agreed to pay the original demand of £60 to agree to the alleged contract had the terms and conditions of the contract been properly displayed.

    11.The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred £50 costs to pursue an alleged £100 debt.

    12. Photographic evidence sent by PE was too dark to be able to tell the location of where the vehicle was parked and therefore could not appeal as defendant was not able to tell what place PE was referring to.

    13. The Court is invited to dismiss the Claim, and to allow such Defendant’s costs as are permissible under Civil Procedure Rule 27.14.


    Statement of Truth: I confirm that the contents of this statement are true to the best of my knowledge and belief.
    Last edited by rizla01; 09-07-2018 at 7:52 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
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    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 18, 12:13 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    from what I can tell my (Her) witness statement needs to include all the correct terminology and citing various cases and I don't have a clue where to look.
    No. The WS is the simple story of what happened in her words. Not 'The Defendant', but 'I did this'.

    You know, like all the WS examples in the NEWBIES thread post #2.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
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    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 11th Jul 18, 8:04 PM
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    Quentin
    (Sorry if I didn't spot the examples of WS's in the 'Newbies please read' section but it would take half a day to find what i was looking for amongst that lot. ).....
    Originally posted by rizla01
    No


    The FAQ is split into 4 posts


    #2 covers court action in detail - including the witness statement
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 18, 9:24 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Sorry if I didn't spot the examples of WS's in the 'Newbies please read' section but
    it would take half a day to find what i was looking for amongst that lot.
    Are you joking?

    It's flipping easy. You are only reading the second post of it, I really do not get why anyone finds reading the sticky thread hard. I know I wrote it but you only need to read the court section (#2).

    You click on the links that say 'here's an example Witness Statement'. If it's that hard to read a few words, why not just have the NEWBIES thread open and do 'control & F' and put in the word 'witness' and get there that way? In less than one second...

    Also is it too late to claim costs for defending this case now because of the time it has taken Etc or should I have done that before now?
    Errrm...costs schedules are there too, in that second post, and when to file one (a bit later).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-07-2018 at 10:15 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
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    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Jul 18, 9:58 PM
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    Umkomaas
    it would take half a day to find what i was looking for amongst that lot
    Wow! Any idea how much time regulars spend here every day of the year helping people with their problems, (none of their own)?

    Mrs U would be well pleased if I only spent half a day - almost every day for the past 5.5 years - dealing with this stuff.

    Mr Coupon would likely be even more pleased if Mrs C managed a serious reduction in her hours too.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Jul 18, 10:40 PM
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    KeithP
    So this is not a 'Defence' letter at all then CM?
    Originally posted by rizla01
    No it is not.

    You wrote the Defence last year.

    Why have you ignored post #230?
    .
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 12th Jul 18, 9:51 AM
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    rizla01
    You click on the links that say 'here's an example Witness Statement'. If it's that hard to read a few words, why not just have the NEWBIES thread open and do 'control & F' and put in the word 'witness' and get there that way? In less than one second...
    Thanks for that CM. Never knew that. A lot easier.

    @Keith.
    Simply because i dont know what I am doing. Fish out of water Etc.
    Struggling to deal with this but am getting there.
    Medications do have side effects you know.

    I am really sorry if I am causing too much work for you all but I am one letter away from having dealt with it and whatever the outcome and after I have posted the results on here you will never hear from me again.
    I do have you all to thank for the time you have spent.

    I will now try to put together a Witness Statement and post that for your critique.
    Last edited by rizla01; 12-07-2018 at 9:54 AM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Jul 18, 10:15 AM
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    Umkomaas
    after I have posted the results on here you will never hear from me again.
    Pity, because giving the benefit of your experience to others in dealing with this scourge (as we do) would be another step in working to rid the country of this out of control money grab!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 12th Jul 18, 10:56 AM
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    rizla01
    Hi, Umkomaas

    I didn't wish to sound ungrateful for all the work spent by you all in putting this site, so full of great info, together, but for a newcomer to the process the advice is plentiful if not, overwhelming. Like a lot of people, I go 'word blind' after a while if I cannot find what i am looking for. 'Glazed look' comes to mind.

    It is simple for those that prepared this page because they know where they put stuff but I doubt I could advise anyone else with the info on here. If I am struggling to find my way through all of the good advice given, it would be like the blind leading the blind.

    I could do more harm than good so its probably best left to those more capable than me, I think most on here would agree.

    Could you say btw, if the map of the parking area that I have shown is the sort of thing a judge would be happy to work from, in your opinion?
    Last edited by rizla01; 12-07-2018 at 12:34 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Castle
    • By Castle 12th Jul 18, 11:04 AM
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    Castle
    I also intend using this. would that be correct?



    With the addition of an arrow pointing to the entrance.
    Originally posted by rizla01
    If the driver followed the green route then it would have taken them through the KFC "Drive Thru"; which isn't parking.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 12th Jul 18, 11:31 AM
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    Quentin
    I am one letter away from having dealt with it …...
    Originally posted by rizla01
    If only you had sent the one letter you were advised to back in November (but inexplicably did not) in #11 by CM this thread would never have got to its 240 posts (not including the ones you deleted)!!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jul 18, 1:59 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    ...ParkingEye have signs talking about 'total stay'. They make the rules up, because they can. No-one stops them.

    But the POFA 2012 talks about parking events and says that a PCN can only be issued to a keeper for a 'single period of parking'. So clearly the intention of Parliament is, that liability for a parking charge relates to a single parking event.

    There are also Grace Periods to factor in, and the BPA CoP sets those out (two periods, one for arriving, finding a space, and observing the signs and deciding whether to stay, and the other at least ten minutes merely to leave).

    All explained here:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    So, if your Daughter's total stay was just 14 minutes (all told) over the 2 hours parking allowed, even if she hadn't moved the car and re-parked, the Grace periods cover her already, and PE no doubt realise this, and are chancing their arm. 5 minutes on arrival plus the mandatory ten after expiry of allowed parking time = 15 minutes non-parking activity, perfectly OK.

    I expect that's why PE want to backtrack/squeeze £60 out of her, because they are on a sticky wicket already.

    Now, on top of that grace periods argument, she can also argue two more things:

    - that the car was moved within the site, so there were two parking events (then she points to the POFA - even if she's blabbed about who was driving, IMHO she can point to the will of Parliament about PCNs relating only to single parking events, and also nothing is there about made-up 'total stays'!)

    - that circumspect, average drivers would perfectly reasonably take the ambiguous terms to mean that they can in fact park for a total of two hours, which she did not exceed. Any reference on the signs to 'total stay' is no doubt contradicted elsewhere by mention of 'parking' (check, it usually is, maybe instore/on the window or on the retailer's website?) and as such the terms are ambiguous as well as disingenuous.

    She didn't contravene 2 hours total parking, and did not accept any contract to pay £100.

    I am sure PE are looking to discontinue this one. It is winnable on Grace Periods alone, but throw in the 'moved car' and you have even more to say at any hearing (and I don't think PE want this to go in front of any Judge).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Above is post #11 about grace periods and the fact there were in fact two parking events, not totalling over 2 hours.

    Writing the WS about this should be simple, and yes that aerial map is good.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
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    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 12th Jul 18, 5:51 PM
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    rizla01
    Here is the rough draft so far. Does this sound OK?
    Please let me have any recommendations and suggestions. Thanks

    Claim Number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    BETWEEN:
    ParkingEye Ltd (Claimant)
    vs
    XXX Xxxx(Defendant)

    I am xx of xx xxx xxx, defendant in this matter.

    Firstly I apologise if my presentation is not up to the standard of the professional Companies such as Parking Eye Ltd., that make a fortune from dealing with these matters but I have done my best to present my case whilst not wishing to waste too much of the courts valuable time on largely irrelevant legalities.

    This claim is denied in its entirety. I assert that I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all, for the following reasons, any one of which is fatal to the Claimant's case.


    I. The period of 2 Hours was not exceeded when grace periods are taken into account.

    II. The period of parking consists of two separate parking periods.

    III. The signage does not offer a contract with the motorist

    1v The parking area is not sufficiently signed leaving many large areas where signage is not in place.

    v The Claimant has no standing to bring a case


    The Greyhound car parking area consists of 4 individual car parks, all of which have always offered free parking ever since they were installed.

    Each year I take my three young girls to Matalan to kit them out with new clothing and have always parked in the safest spot where they don!!!8217;t need to negotiate traffic. This is at the very top of the car park, farthest away from the store entrance.

    On the day in question namely 19th July 2017, I entered a very busy car park are with lots of traffic in both directions as Matalan were clearing many sales items, so I proceeded towards my usual parking area and waited quite a time until a space in my usual spot was vacated. I then parked up. My girls and I left my and made our way to the store entrance.

    At no time at all, was I aware of any restricted parking signs. There is a wall that I walked along where signs could easily be affixed but there were none. There are no warning signs inside the shop.

    After about 1 ½ hours I emerged from the shop and headed to my car, the intention now being to get something to eat so proceeded to treat my girls to a KFC lunch. Once again no parking signs are visible on the way there and none whatever around the KFC restaurant area. There is a parking area on that site which makes no mention whatever of parking restrictions. After lunch we left the car park.


    I. Grace periods.

    According to the BPA Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice Control and enforcement of parking on private land and unregulated public car parks Version 7 - January 2018

    Section 13.2
    If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

    Section 13.4
    You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes

    II. Two separate parking incidents.

    Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 makes it very clear that two separate parking periods cannot be treated as if they were the same parking incident which clearly occurred when I moved my vehicle to KFC and re-parked.

    Schedule 4: Section 7 Para 3:- The notice must relate only to a single period of parking

    III The signage does not offer a contract with the motorist

    1. The claim is for breach of contract. However, it is denied any contract existed.

    2. The Claimant states, in their Particulars of Claim, that the signage is !!!8216;clearly displayed!!!8217; but this is not agreed. Thus, the necessary elements of offer and acceptance to form a contract were not present. Although the Claimant has not provided a signage map in many of their car parks signs are positioned in such a way as to create !!!8216;entrapment zones!!!8217; where signage is not clearly visible. The Claimant is put strictly to proof that this is not the case on this site.

    3. The elements of offer, acceptance and consideration both ways have therefore not been satisfied and so no contract can exist.

    4. In addition to the defence that the signage does not form a contract with the driver I would point the courts attention to the photographs of the signage in the evidence pack I would suggest that the driver would not have been able to read any such sign in the seconds taken to enter the car park and that their attention would have been taken up with negotiating the safe entry to the site and not reading terms and conditions


    vI: Signage not visible and is inadequate.

    Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.
    Large areas of this parking area are totally devoid of any signs at all. Places that would make the signs immediately visible (Large clear brick wall of store for example) are not used. What signs do exist are out of sight and above prescribed heights to be easily read.


    Signage in Car Park
    1. In addition to the defence that the signage does not form a contract with the driver I would point the courts attention to the photographs of the signage in the evidence pack I would suggest that the driver would not have been able to read any such sign in the seconds taken to enter the car park and that their attention would have been taken up with negotiating the safe entry to the site and not reading terms and conditions.
    I was thinking about adding this

    v 1) The Claimant is asked to prove by way of contracts a definitive link between the landowner and themselves to prove that they have the locus standii to pursue such matters. The Defendant wishes to see an un-redacted contemporaneous copy of the contract between the Claimant and the landowner, not just another agent or retailer or other non-landholder. It must be clear that the landowner has authorised the necessary rights to the Claimant as required in the British Parking Association!!!8217;s code of practice, Part 7 Written Authorisation of the Landowner.

    2) If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken."


    Obviously I believe Etc Etc to the best of my knowledge Etc at the end
    Last edited by rizla01; 12-07-2018 at 7:23 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jul 18, 12:03 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Wow, those photos of the KFC area are blinking brilliant evidence!

    And the aerial map photo you showed before, that is good too. Use them all.

    She will also need to adduce as evidence now, the BPA CoP section on 'grace periods'

    ... and the POFA Schedule 4 on 'one PCN/one period of parking', even though in fact the POFA is statute and shouldn't need to be produced, it will assist the court and help her (well you, as her lay rep with her) to show her case. And even though the POFA doesn't actually apply to drivers, only keepers, I would still use the point about the 'single period of parking' as being the 'will of Parliament' when drafting the only legislation about parking on private land.

    And as long as that WS is numbered, that sounds fine to me, it really is about writing our your defence in the first person, and that's what she's done.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
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    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Jul 18, 11:33 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    Adduce as evidence means doing what post 2 tells you in the newbies, and ensuring your WS references any exhibits you wish to introduce. E.g. INITIALS/001 - an excerpt of the BPA CoP concerning grace periods.
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  • RT @laurawithers84: @MartinSLewis Our school is going to use your book for our new finance fortnight for year 8 students. We thought we wou?

  • RT @katiejane13uk: ????????IMPORTANT - CALLING ALL LEASEHOLDERS TO COMPLETE???????? @mhclg Leasehold Reform Consultation closes this month. This is the?

  • Just sent a text about postgrad loans. My Swype text auto-corrected it to pothead loans. Does it know something I don't?

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