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  • FIRST POST
    • dr_genestealer
    • By dr_genestealer 7th Dec 17, 5:38 PM
    • 9Posts
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    dr_genestealer
    APCOA Evesham Train Station
    • #1
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:38 PM
    APCOA Evesham Train Station 7th Dec 17 at 5:38 PM
    UPDATE: See my 3rd Jan 2018 post for successful POPLA appeal outcome.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Like many here, my vehicle was found in the GWR Evesham Train Station with a APCOA Parking Charge Notice attached to the windscreen, car had been paid via automated phone call service with no name stored on the system (I have checked online).

    Inside ACPOA claim "FGW04 - Not a Parking Area" and are asking for 100GBP.
    I have checked the webpage and there is a photo of the car and a photo blue sign.
    If you look at Evesham railway station on Google street view, you can view inside the car park.

    No communications have yet started


    I have drafted the following for the clearly automated system of rejecting all 1st informal appeals, text in blue should be unchanged from the standard template for BPA member.

    Also, it is true that POPLA have stayed all appeals for train stations with statutory controlled land, which include this train station?


    Dear APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd

    Re PCN number: xxxxx, Vehicle Registration No. xxxxxx

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.


    I have since visited to train station car park to inspect the area and am concerned for the following reasons:
    1. In your webpage there is a photo of the parked car, it is shown parked in the designated parking area, at the end of a row of similarly parked vehicles, without causing an obstruction. Parking had been paid via the phone service. I cannot see why then a PCN was issued.

    2. Upon inspecting the parking areas for clarification as to what was deemed the "parking area" there is no indication.

    3. Non-compliant signage: There are no clearly visible signs to the driver when entering the car park. On closer inspection a small sign was found located on the car park exit fence, located approved 50cm above ground, at right angles to arriving and departing cards and typically obscured from entering cars view by cars leaving the car park. As such I believe your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.
    In addition, the small blue signs located in the car park simply ask if the driver has paid and if not then use the machines or pay by phone. At no point is mention of parking areas or fines stated in any clear manner.

    The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    Last edited by dr_genestealer; 03-01-2018 at 11:19 PM. Reason: added GWR
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 5:42 PM
    • 18,134 Posts
    • 22,920 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:42 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:42 PM
    bylaws apply on railway land, not parking charges

    yes use the blue text template "as is"

    no its not true about popla , in fact the BPA ruled recently that they werent prepared to let popla deal with the INDIGO railway penalty appeals, so not sure about APCOA but you may find the same applies, in which case there is no appeal path after an APCOA appeal

    if APCOA issue a popla code , use it
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • dr_genestealer
    • By dr_genestealer 7th Dec 17, 6:02 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    dr_genestealer
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 17, 6:02 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 17, 6:02 PM
    Hi Redx,
    Thanks for the reply, can I check when you say use the blue text template as it is. Are you recommending that I strip out the bits I added about the train station, I assume this is as it can do more bad than good. What's amazing about the photograph on the website is that you can clearly see the vehicle is parked adjacent to another vehicle and there is no indication that there has been any error made on behalf of driver.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 6:46 PM
    • 18,134 Posts
    • 22,920 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 6:46 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 6:46 PM
    as long as the driver is not dobbed in you can add whatever you feel is appropriate

    the "safe" option is the one I indicated , using the blue text appeal "as is"

    the decision to alter that template or not lies with you , I do not recommend anyone altering it at all , not without careful wording and good reason
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • dr_genestealer
    • By dr_genestealer 8th Dec 17, 11:58 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    dr_genestealer
    • #5
    • 8th Dec 17, 11:58 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Dec 17, 11:58 AM
    Ok I will use the standard blue template.

    Just for reference,GWRparkingappeals auto-response was as follows, I assume I can ignore it.

    PLEASE ENSURE THAT YOU READ ALL THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS EMAIL AS IT GUIDES YOU THROUGH THE NEXT STEP IN THE PROCESS.

    In order for us to deal with your correspondence it is important that you provide the following information:

    Full Name, Postal Address (including post code), Parking Charge Notice Number and Vehicle Registration Number

    If you did not include this on your previous email, please resend your e-mail including any missing information.

    When we have received all the required information your case will be placed on hold. The case will not progress or increase in cost whilst it is on hold.

    PLEASE DO NOT MAKE PAYMENT WHILST YOUR CASE IS UNDER REVIEW.

    Your appeal will be considered and a response sent you via email/letter within 35 days. Should your appeal be unsuccessful, your letter will explain the next steps for you to follow.

    Please note that we do not give priority to appeals received by e-mail as all correspondence is dealt with in the order it is received to ensure fairness to all. Duplicate submission of emails or appeals may result in delay in responding to your appeal.

    If your e-mail did not relate to an appeal or query concerning a Parking Charge Notice, then it will be passed to the relevant department who will respond to you in due course.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Dec 17, 12:38 PM
    • 2,516 Posts
    • 3,062 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #6
    • 8th Dec 17, 12:38 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Dec 17, 12:38 PM
    You must provide the info they state.
    • dr_genestealer
    • By dr_genestealer 9th Dec 17, 1:13 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    dr_genestealer
    • #7
    • 9th Dec 17, 1:13 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Dec 17, 1:13 AM
    Thanks @nosferatu1001 but why would I be under any obligation to provide them with extra information. They have not explained why they want or need that data and don't want just anybody having my Full Name and Postal Address. They could do anything with that information.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Dec 17, 6:19 AM
    • 17,621 Posts
    • 27,847 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 9th Dec 17, 6:19 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Dec 17, 6:19 AM
    Thanks @nosferatu1001 but why would I be under any obligation to provide them with extra information. They have not explained why they want or need that data and don't want just anybody having my Full Name and Postal Address. They could do anything with that information.
    Originally posted by dr_genestealer
    You’re not obliged to provide it, but if you don’t, they will argue you have not followed their appeals procedure and might just ignore your appeal and - crucially - effectively block your route to POPLA. Your choice, but getting to POPLA must be the goal in any private parking case, where the greatest possibility (short of a landowner cancellation) of killing a charge dead exists.

    If they ignore your appeal, from day 28, if you’re the vehicle’s registered keeper, they will get your details anyway from the DVLA.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • dr_genestealer
    • By dr_genestealer 22nd Dec 17, 12:22 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    dr_genestealer
    • #9
    • 22nd Dec 17, 12:22 AM
    • #9
    • 22nd Dec 17, 12:22 AM
    Update, received standard templated reject letter/speculative-invoice response from APCOA, with a POPLA code!
    Their letter says the terms and conditions of the car park state the vehicle must park in a designated bay. The photos claim to show the car parked outside of said bays.
    Photo of car: imgur.com/a/Yqkln

    Photo of sign in car park: imgur.com/a/hZw9W
    Fictional sign from the letter: imgur.com/a/OjUb4

    Is there grounds to fight this "parking outside a marked bay" current bays are faded and unclear. Signage is also rubbish.

    Have a look at street view photos from May 2017. google.co.uk/maps/@52.0981689,-1.9471937,3a,75y,42.38h,64.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv3Bnc2ljqCLTxXpGMS0nGA!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656


    Copy of the letter, with nonsensical grammar. E.G."The data subject has given their consent to the processing, in that the motorist has entered onto private land, and into a parking contract with APCOA parking Ltd and the Landowner, as established upon signage place at this site. "

    imgur.com/a/yxdx9

    I'll draft my POPLA Appeal, but is there anything I need to focus on, such as Railway bye-laws, the terrible signage, unclear road markings, is the letter even formatted correctly?
    I see Coupon-mad's #3 post in the sticky is a great guide, but any help would be greatly appreciated.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Dec 17, 12:31 AM
    • 18,134 Posts
    • 22,920 Thanks
    Redx
    yes, anything and everything , throw the kitchen sink in too

    find a recent railway popla appeal and adapt it, they are already written for you and just needs a recent one to be copied and pasted , adapt it and tweak it and it should be good to go

    but remember you are appealing as keeper so its about what you the keeper have found out since because you are protecting yourself as keeper

    what happened to the driver on the day is hearsay to the keeper

    so as long as nobody has told them who was driving , stay in keeper mode, and appeal on

    POFA2012 compliance does not apply on railway land - so keeper not liable
    so transfer of liability from driver to keeper has failed
    Poor and indequate Signage and markings
    bylaws and penalty notice
    no landowner authority
    no contract
    not the same as Beavis
    BPA CoP failures
    any NTK failures

    etc

    apcoa will fold as soon as they see a properly worded 2017 railway popla appeal being submitted

    they prefer to play 4 letter word games like snap
    Last edited by Redx; 22-12-2017 at 12:35 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • dr_genestealer
    • By dr_genestealer 27th Dec 17, 2:03 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    dr_genestealer
    I have copied most of the brilliant post [APCOA Swindon Train Station POPLA]
    (forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5738867)

    Draft POPLA appeal:
    As the registered keeper, this is my appeal about a Parking Charge Notice issued by APCOA for an alleged breach of the company's terms and condition in the Evesham railway station car parking the xxth xxx xxxx.!For the avoidance of doubt, the drivers identity has not been provided and this appeal remains purely from the registered keeper.

    The alleged breach of the company's terms and condition is FGW04 - Not in a parking area.

    A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.
    Railway Land Is Not ‘Relevant Land’
    APCOA Using Railway Bye law for claims
    Appellant not being the individual liable
    Non-compliant signage
    Lack of standing / authority from landowner
    Bays are poorly marked or ambiguously marked.


    1) A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.

    APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd has not fulfilled the 'second condition' for keeper liability as defined in Schedule 4 and as a result, they have no lawful authority to pursue any parking charge from myself, as a registered keeper appellant. There is no discretion on this matter. If Schedule 4 mandatory documents are not served at all, or in time (or if the document omits any prescribed wording) then keeper liability simply does not apply.

    The wording in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 is as follows:

    ''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle:
    4(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. (2) The right under this paragraph applies only if

    (a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6*, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met;

    *Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4:
    6(1) ''The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)— (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8. This is re-iterated further ‘If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper MUST be given in accordance with paragraph 8.’

    The NTK must have been delivered to the registered keeper’s address within the ‘relevant period’ which is highlighted as a total of 56 days beginning with the day after that on which any notice to driver was given. As this operator has evidently failed to serve a NTK, not only have they chosen to flout the strict requirements set out in PoFA 2012, but they have consequently failed to meet the second condition for keeper liability. Clearly I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly given.



    2) Railway Land Is Not ‘Relevant Land’

    Under Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012, section 1, it states that:

    “(1) This schedule applies where –
    (a) The driver of a vehicle is required by virtue of a relevant obligation to pay parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on relevant land”. Following from this, in section 3, PoFA 2012 states that: “(1) In this schedule “relevant land” means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than - … (b) any land … on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control”. And that: “(3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1) (c) the parking of a vehicle on land is “subject to statutory control” if any statutory provision imposes a liability (whether criminal or civil, and whether in the form of a fee or charge or a penalty of any kind) in respect of the parking on that land of vehicles generally or of vehicles of a description that includes the vehicle in question”.

    Since byelaws apply to railway land, the land is not relevant land within the meaning of PoFA and so is specifically excluded from 'keeper liability' under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable, as this Act does not apply on this land. I ask APCOA for strict proof otherwise if they disagree with this point and would require them to show evidence including documentary proof from the rail authorities that this land is not already covered by byelaws. Railway land, being governed by Byelaws, is not relevant land and Keeper Liability under POFA does not apply, and therefore APCOA are unable to pursue the registered keeper in lieu of the driver’s details.

    POPLA assessor Steve Macallan found in 6062356150 in September 2016 that land under statutory control cannot be considered ‘relevant land’ for the purposes of POFA 2012. ‘As the site is not located on ‘relevant land’, the operator is unable to rely on POFA 2012 in order to transfer liability to the hirer. Additionally, as I am not satisfied the appellant was the driver, I am unable to conclude that the operator issued the PCN correctly, and I must allow this appeal.’


    3) APCOA Using Railway Bye law for claims

    By claiming charge is liable to them, it appears that APCOA are attempting to claim this under railway byelaws. I reject this and put to them strictly to prove on which byelaw they claim is broken, and in any case, why this would result in an obligation to pay APCOA.!

    I also refer to Freedom of Information Act Request – F0013227 whereby the Department for the Secretary of State for Transport has categorically stated that no confirmation or change in laws since the Railways Act 1993 came into force, which empower any person or body other than the courts to impose a penalty for breach of Byelaws 14(1), (2) or (3) made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 (as amended) and made operational on 7 July 2005.!

    Therefore, any breach of byelaws is a criminal offence, not a breach of any contract APCOA may say the driver entered in to. If the driver is found to have breached byelaws 14 (1-3), the resulting penalty is paid to the government, not to APCOA or the railway. Further, byelaw offences are decided by the court, not by APCOA – the parking company or railway can only allege the breach.




    4) Appellant not being the individual liable

    APCOA has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge. (ref POPLA case Carly Law 6061796103). In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. Any person(s), with the consent of the registered keeper, may drive a vehicle as long as the driver is insured.

    Where a charge is aimed only at a driver then, of course, no other party can be told to pay. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be and as the Registered Keeper), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.

    Not being the owner of the vehicle, under the Railway byelaws the registered keeper of the vehicle cannot assumed to be the owner anymore than they can assumed to be the driver.

    As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if APCOA is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made because the fact remains I am only the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.

    The burden of proof rests with APCOA, because they cannot use the POFA in this case, to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

    Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA 2012 was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

    Understanding keeper liability

    “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.!

    There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. If POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass."

    Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator is NOT attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.!

    This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:!

    "I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal."

    The same conclusion was reached by POPLA Assessor Steve Macallan, quoted in appeal point above.


    5) Non-compliant signage

    APCOA signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself. Entrance signs which are mandatory under the code are not visible and do not follow paragraph 18.2 of the code.

    There was neither contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case. For a contract to be formed, one of the many considerations is that there must be adequate signage on entering the car park, and furthermore a Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home “so prominently that the party ‘must’ have known of it” and agreed terms. I contend that this is not the case, and question the fact that the driver saw any sign specifying the amount of the ‘fine’ that would be due, and so there was no consideration or acceptance and no contract agreed between the parties!

    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:


    In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.!

    Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:

    This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.

    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.!

    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge, which is hidden in small print. Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.!

    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

    ''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''

    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put APCOA to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.!

    The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:

    As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:

    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2” letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3” or even larger.''

    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:

    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.!

    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''!

    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':!

    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.!
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports My argument, not the operator's case:

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put APCOA to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require APCOA to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this. Rather intersting that the pictures that came with the notice had no site entrance photos

    Furthermore, APCOA claims there is another operator sharing boundary with it on the railway land and the ticket displayed by the driver is that of the other operator. POPLA should note that the only visible rates as you drive through the car park is that of the other operator. This visible rate is what the driver saw and the rate matched what the meter machine (within metres of where the car was parked) charged the driver. The questions needs to be asked of APCOA why their rates are not as visible as that of the other operator and why they, knowing, that there is a danger of drivers being mislead do not have clear and legible signs with their rates and also legible notice to guide drivers not to use the other operators machine.



    6) Lack of standing / authority from landowner

    Section 7 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice requires parking operators to have the written authority from the landowner to operate on the land. Section 7.1 states:

    “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”.

    Section 7.3 states: “The written authorisation must also set out:

    a. the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined!

    b. any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c. any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement!

    d. who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs!

    e. the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.''

    I do not believe that APCOA’s mere site agreement as a contractor issuing PCNs and letters 'on behalf of' a TOC gives the parking firm any rights to sue in their own name. This is insufficient to comply with the BPA Code of Practice and not enough to hold me liable in law to pay APCOA (not that a keeper can be liable anyway on non-relevant land and APCOA cannot enforce byelaws themselves, only the Train Operating Company (TOC) or site landowners can, by requiring the driver ONLY, to answer to a real fine at a Magistrates Court). APCOA have no title in this land and therefore have no standing to enforce 'parking charges' or penalties of any description in any court. No evidence has been supplied lawfully showing that APCOA are entitled to pursue these charges in their own right.

    I require APCOA to provide a full copy of the contemporaneous, signed & dated (unredacted) contract with the landowner. I say that any contract is not compliant with the requirements set out in the BPA Code of Practice and does not allow them to charge and issue proceedings for this sum for this alleged contravention in this car park. In order to refute this it will not be sufficient for APCOA merely to supply a site agreement or witness statement, as these do not show sufficient detail (such as the restrictions, charges and revenue sharing arrangements agreed with a landowner) and may well be signed by a non-landholder such as another agent. In order to comply with paragraph 7 of the BPA Code of Practice, a non-landowner private parking company must have a specifically-worded contract with the landowner - not merely an 'agreement' with a non-landholder managing agent - otherwise there is no authority. I put APCOA to strict proof of compliance with all of the above requirements

    7) Bays are poorly marked or ambiguously marked.

    Furthermore, the parking spaces which exist are poorly marked, in some cases the marking have all but disappeared.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 27th Dec 17, 2:51 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    Looks fine if messy. Byelaws And not relevant land should be the first point.

    I!!!8217;d reword the point around APCOA using byelaws, as it!!!8217;s a mess. What I presume you!!!8217;re going for is that this is either a penalty under byelaws, or a charge under contract. They can!!!8217;t mix and match.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Dec 17, 6:27 PM
    • 57,498 Posts
    • 71,087 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The same conclusion was reached by POPLA Assessor Steve Macallan, quoted in appeal point above.
    Remove that, because he isn't quoted, is he?

    And because there is a new (I hope not rogue, just clueless) Assessor at POPLA now who clearly has not been trained properly, in case you get them, I would add at point #1, moving your final sentence from your draft down to start this new paragraph:

    Clearly I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly given. POPLA Assessor, if you think that looking at the Notice to Driver instead, and comparing that to the POFA is acceptable (as happened in a very wrong 'Gemini Parking' POPLA decision prior to Christmas that is in the public domain and needs addressing as a terrible POPLA error and woeful lack of POFA training) then you are not correct, must NOT take that step and must refer this case first, to your Lead Adjudicator, because POPLA is not entitled under any rule of law to make a finding against a registered keeper in a case without a Notice to Keeper. This will continue to be stated in appeals until all POPLA Assessors get this simple matter right.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 30-12-2017 at 2:39 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • dr_genestealer
    • By dr_genestealer 30th Dec 17, 2:06 AM
    • 9 Posts
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    dr_genestealer
    Thank CM, I will amend, thanks for the heads up for the new/rogue Assessor (I feel a Channel 4 dispatches episode coming on!) I will add your brilliant addition.
    • dr_genestealer
    • By dr_genestealer 3rd Jan 18, 11:12 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    dr_genestealer
    Appeal upheld!
    Thank you everyone for your help. I uploaded my appeal last night, then this afternoon had an email from POPLA saying my appeal was successful.
    "Thank you for submitting your parking charge Appeal to POPLA.
    An Appeal has been opened with the reference xxxxxxxxx.
    APCOA Parking have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge."

    Brilliant!!!

    For reference, I used the following finial revision of my appeal.

    As the registered keeper, this is my appeal about a Parking Charge Notice issued by APCOA for an alleged breach of the company's terms and condition in the Evesham railway station car parking on the 6th Dec 2017.
    For the avoidance of doubt, the driver’s identity has not been provided and this appeal remains purely from the registered keeper.
    The alleged breach of the company's terms and condition is FGW04 - Not in a parking area.
    Summary of appeal:
    1. A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.
    2. Railway Land Is Not ‘Relevant Land’.
    3. APCOA Using Railway Bye law for claims.
    4. Appellant not being the individual liable.
    5. Non-compliant signage.
    6. Lack of standing / authority from landowner.
    7. Bays are poorly marked or ambiguously marked.
    8. Vehicle was parked correctly.
    Note: Photos included at end of document

    1) A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.
    APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd has not fulfilled the 'second condition' for keeper liability as defined in Schedule 4 and as a result, they have no lawful authority to pursue any parking charge from myself, as a registered keeper appellant. There is no discretion on this matter. If Schedule 4 mandatory documents are not served at all, or in time (or if the document omits any prescribed wording) then keeper liability simply does not apply.

    The wording in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 is as follows:
    ''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle:
    4(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. (2) The right under this paragraph applies only if
    (a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6*, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met;
    *Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4:
    6(1) ''The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)— (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8. This is re-iterated further ‘If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper MUST be given in accordance with paragraph 8.’

    The NTK must have been delivered to the registered keeper’s address within the ‘relevant period’ which is highlighted as a total of 56 days beginning with the day after that on which any notice to driver was given. As this operator has evidently failed to serve a NTK, not only have they chosen to flout the strict requirements set out in PoFA 2012, but they have consequently failed to meet the second condition for keeper liability. Clearly I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly given.

    2) Railway Land Is Not ‘Relevant Land’
    Under Schedule 4 of PoFA 2012, section 1, it states that:
    “(1) This schedule applies where –
    (a) The driver of a vehicle is required by virtue of a relevant obligation to pay parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on relevant land”. Following from this, in section 3, PoFA 2012 states that: “(1) In this schedule “relevant land” means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than - … (b) any land … on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control”. And that: “(3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1) (c) the parking of a vehicle on land is “subject to statutory control” if any statutory provision imposes a liability (whether criminal or civil, and whether in the form of a fee or charge or a penalty of any kind) in respect of the parking on that land of vehicles generally or of vehicles of a description that includes the vehicle in question”.
    Since byelaws apply to railway land, the land is not relevant land within the meaning of PoFA and so is specifically excluded from 'keeper liability' under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable, as this Act does not apply on this land. I ask APCOA for strict proof otherwise if they disagree with this point and would require them to show evidence including documentary proof from the rail authorities that this land is not already covered by byelaws. Railway land, being governed by Byelaws, is not relevant land and Keeper Liability under POFA does not apply, and therefore APCOA are unable to pursue the registered keeper in lieu of the driver’s details.
    POPLA assessor Steve Macallan found in 6062356150 in September 2016 that land under statutory control cannot be considered ‘relevant land’ for the purposes of POFA 2012. ‘As the site is not located on ‘relevant land’, the operator is unable to rely on POFA 2012 in order to transfer liability to the hirer. Additionally, as I am not satisfied the appellant was the driver, I am unable to conclude that the operator issued the PCN correctly, and I must allow this appeal.’
    Clearly, I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly given. POPLA Assessor, if you think that looking at the Notice to Driver instead, and comparing that to the POFA is acceptable (as happened in a very wrong 'Gemini Parking' POPLA decision prior to Christmas that is in the public domain and needs addressing as a terrible POPLA error and woeful lack of POFA training) then you are not correct, must NOT take that step and must refer this case first, to your Lead Adjudicator, because POPLA is not entitled under any rule of law to make a finding against a registered keeper in a case without a Notice to Keeper. This will continue to be stated in appeals until all POPLA Assessors get this simple matter right.

    3) APCOA Using Railway Bye law for claims
    By claiming charge is liable to them, it appears that APCOA are attempting to claim this under railway byelaws. I reject this and put to them strictly to prove on which byelaw they claim is broken, and in any case, why this would result in an obligation to pay APCOA.!
    I also refer to Freedom of Information Act Request – F0013227 whereby the Department for the Secretary of State for Transport has categorically stated that no confirmation or change in laws since the Railways Act 1993 came into force, which empower any person or body other than the courts to impose a penalty for breach of Byelaws 14(1), (2) or (3) made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 (as amended) and made operational on 7 July 2005.!
    Therefore, any breach of byelaws is a criminal offence, not a breach of any contract APCOA may say the driver entered in to. If the driver is found to have breached byelaws 14 (1-3), the resulting penalty is paid to the government, not to APCOA or the railway. Further, byelaw offences are decided by the court, not by APCOA – the parking company or railway can only allege the breach.

    4) Appellant not being the individual liable
    APCOA has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge. (ref POPLA case Carly Law 6061796103). In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. Any person(s), with the consent of the registered keeper, may drive a vehicle as long as the driver is insured.
    Where a charge is aimed only at a driver then, of course, no other party can be told to pay. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be and as the Registered Keeper), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.
    Not being the owner of the vehicle, under the Railway byelaws the registered keeper of the vehicle cannot assumed to be the owner anymore than they can assumed to be the driver.
    As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if APCOA is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made because the fact remains I am only the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.
    The burden of proof rests with APCOA, because they cannot use the POFA in this case, to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.
    Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA 2012 was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

    Understanding keeper liability
    “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.!
    There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. If POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass."
    Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator is NOT attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.!
    This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:!
    "I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal."

    5) Non-compliant signage
    APCOA signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself. Entrance signs which are mandatory under the code are not visible and do not follow paragraph 18.2 of the code.
    There was neither contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case. For a contract to be formed, one of the many considerations is that there must be adequate signage on entering the car park, and furthermore a Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home “so prominently that the party ‘must’ have known of it” and agreed terms. I contend that this is not the case, and question the fact that the driver saw any sign specifying the amount of the ‘fine’ that would be due, and so there was no consideration or acceptance and no contract agreed between the parties!
    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:
    In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.!
    Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:
    This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.
    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.!
    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge, which is hidden in small print. Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.!
    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:
    ''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''
    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put APCOA to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.!
    The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:
    As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:
    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2” letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3” or even larger.''
    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:
    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.!
    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''!
    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.
    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':!
    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.!
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.
    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.
    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports My argument, not the operator's case:
    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put APCOA to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require APCOA to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this. Rather intersting that the pictures that came with the notice had no site entrance photos

    Furthermore, APCOA claims there is another operator sharing boundary with it on the railway land and the ticket displayed by the driver is that of the other operator. POPLA should note that the only visible rates as you drive through the car park is that of the other operator. This visible rate is what the driver saw and the rate matched what the meter machine (within metres of where the car was parked) charged the driver. The questions needs to be asked of APCOA why their rates are not as visible as that of the other operator and why they, knowing, that there is a danger of drivers being mislead do not have clear and legible signs with their rates and also legible notice to guide drivers not to use the other operators machine.
    6) Lack of standing / authority from landowner
    Section 7 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice requires parking operators to have the written authority from the landowner to operate on the land. Section 7.1 states:
    “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”.
    Section 7.3 states: “The written authorisation must also set out:
    a. the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined!
    b. any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
    c. any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement!
    d. who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs!
    e. the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.''

    I do not believe that APCOA’s mere site agreement as a contractor issuing PCNs and letters 'on behalf of' a TOC gives the parking firm any rights to sue in their own name. This is insufficient to comply with the BPA Code of Practice and not enough to hold me liable in law to pay APCOA (not that a keeper can be liable anyway on non-relevant land and APCOA cannot enforce byelaws themselves, only the Train Operating Company (TOC) or site landowners can, by requiring the driver ONLY, to answer to a real fine at a Magistrates Court). APCOA have no title in this land and therefore have no standing to enforce 'parking charges' or penalties of any description in any court. No evidence has been supplied lawfully showing that APCOA are entitled to pursue these charges in their own right.

    I require APCOA to provide a full copy of the contemporaneous, signed & dated (unredacted) contract with the landowner. I say that any contract is not compliant with the requirements set out in the BPA Code of Practice and does not allow them to charge and issue proceedings for this sum for this alleged contravention in this car park. In order to refute this it will not be sufficient for APCOA merely to supply a site agreement or witness statement, as these do not show sufficient detail (such as the restrictions, charges and revenue sharing arrangements agreed with a landowner) and may well be signed by a non-landholder such as another agent. In order to comply with paragraph 7 of the BPA Code of Practice, a non-landowner private parking company must have a specifically-worded contract with the landowner - not merely an 'agreement' with a non-landholder managing agent - otherwise there is no authority. I put APCOA to strict proof of compliance with all of the above requirements

    7) Bays are poorly marked or ambiguously marked.
    Furthermore, the parking spaces which exist are poorly marked, in some cases the marking have all but disappeared, in wet weather, such as the date in question, this is further exacerbated.

    8) Vehicle was parked correctly.
    The evidence is lacking to show the vehicle was parked incorrectly. Photos provided by APCOA show the vehicle parked in the middle row of the car park and are not out of the ordinary. Payment for parking had been provided and the vehicle was parked correctly.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jan 18, 11:15 PM
    • 57,498 Posts
    • 71,087 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    APCOA Parking have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge."
    Like most aggressive bullies they are cowards who don't like it up them...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Jan 18, 11:15 PM
    • 18,134 Posts
    • 22,920 Thanks
    Redx
    well done

    its typical of apcoa not to contest a well worded popla appeal , especially for train stations or airports
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 3rd Jan 18, 11:26 PM
    • 17,621 Posts
    • 27,847 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I!!!8217;ve yet to see any APCOA POPLA, appeal (from the past few months) defended by them. I wonder if it!!!8217;s they who had the 100% POPLA withdrawal rate recently reported?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • RFHstaff18
    • By RFHstaff18 6th Jan 18, 1:00 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    RFHstaff18
    Happy New Year to you all, I have a query: i was issued a parking ticket from Gemini for parking at my work place (which by the way i pay a monthly fee to park there regardless if i am on sick leave or annual leave, i am still charged by salary deduction). The have sent letters including debt collection letter, should i pay the or what do i do next?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jan 18, 1:16 PM
    • 17,621 Posts
    • 27,847 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Happy New Year to you all, I have a query: i was issued a parking ticket from Gemini for parking at my work place (which by the way i pay a monthly fee to park there regardless if i am on sick leave or annual leave, i am still charged by salary deduction). The have sent letters including debt collection letter, should i pay the or what do i do next?
    Originally posted by RFHstaff18
    Sorry, you’re in the wrong place. Your post contains nothing to help the thread originator as it has no relevance to his case. It is neither about APCOA nor Evesham Train Station.

    Inputs to other posters’ threads should provide advice to them. If you are seeking advice for your own situation, firstly please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 (which explains the basics) and post #4 of the sticky (which explains how to deal with debt collectors) - thereafter, if you want further advice, please start a new thread of your own.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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