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  • FIRST POST
    • Defensure
    • By Defensure 6th Dec 17, 8:39 AM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Defensure
    Off Grid Gas/Oil Central Heating
    • #1
    • 6th Dec 17, 8:39 AM
    Off Grid Gas/Oil Central Heating 6th Dec 17 at 8:39 AM
    Morning everyone

    Just after any advice on the installation of a central heating system. It’s for my grandmother who lives in a village with no mains gas. Typically people in the village have either LPG or oil tanks installed to power their central heating systems.

    Being a fairly old property, and her previous relunctance to change from her storage heating, we have only until now chipped away at her enough to get central heating installed.

    Which brings me to the reason I need some advice. My mum arranged for a plumber to go round and give them a quote for the works. The works entail:

    Supply and installation of:
    slimline bunded oil tank
    Worcester Bosch 12/18 oil boiler
    5 radiators inc surface mount piping (even though we only need 4)
    Room stat and controller
    Full set up and commissioning

    Now the installation is in a bungalow so all piping can go through the loft, and as mentioned it will all be surface mounted so no wall chasing or floorboard work involved.

    Anyway so the quote is £8,288 inc VAT

    my initial reaction when my Mum sent it over to me is that someone’s seen two pensioners and is trying to get as much money from them as they can.

    Has anyone got any thoughts on that price, and more importantly, any recommendations on the use of either oil or LPG gas. I read yesterday Calor will provide and install the tank for free, as long as you use them for two years and pay a standing charge every quarter.

    Many thanks

    Luke
Page 1
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 6th Dec 17, 12:27 PM
    • 27,360 Posts
    • 13,390 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #2
    • 6th Dec 17, 12:27 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Dec 17, 12:27 PM
    Welcome to the forum.

    I would certainly prefer oil CH and it will certainly enhance the value of her property.

    Is the boiler to be fitted inside or outside?

    What is size of tank? Bear in mind that larger deliveries of oil are cheaper.

    Others, more qualified than I, will hopefully comment on the quoted price, but for a smallish property I would have thought £5,000 would be nearer the mark.

    I suggest you get several detailed estimates.
    • A. Badger
    • By A. Badger 6th Dec 17, 8:15 PM
    • 5,196 Posts
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    A. Badger
    • #3
    • 6th Dec 17, 8:15 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Dec 17, 8:15 PM
    I'm in no position to offer an opinion on the proposed cost of a whole system but I would say that oil is the better bet. There is quite a lot of competition among oil suppliers and that works to keep the price keener.
    • Ebe Scrooge
    • By Ebe Scrooge 7th Dec 17, 8:26 AM
    • 4,127 Posts
    • 3,569 Thanks
    Ebe Scrooge
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:26 AM
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:26 AM
    I would agree that oil is a better option than LPG - it tends to be the less expensive of the 2 options ( in terms of the fuel itself ), and you're not tied to a single supplier - shop around every time you fill up.

    I'm afraid I can't comment on your quote for the installation costs - however, as with anything it would be wise to get at least 3 different quotes, ideally from suitably qualified installers recommended by friends & neighbours.

    The only point I would add - install the biggest tank possible. You don't have to fill it to the brim every time, if you don't want to. But it does give you the option of filling up when the prices are lowest ( typically during the summer, though the price of oil does vary daily, indeed hourly, based upon many factors - supply & demand, global oil prices, the USD/GBP exchange rate, as oil is traded in US Dollars, etc. etc. ). But if you can buy and store enough "cheap" oil to last you all year, you won't be lumbered with having to fill up when the prices are higher, usually in the winter.
    I may not know much about art, but I know what I like.
    • dogshome
    • By dogshome 7th Dec 17, 11:08 AM
    • 3,031 Posts
    • 1,545 Thanks
    dogshome
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 11:08 AM
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 11:08 AM
    The major items are the WB 12/18 Boiler at around £2.295 and the slimline tank at around £750/ £1000 - say £3,095 for the pair

    This leaves around £5,000 for Installation, Flue, Radiators, Pipework, the Controls and the installers mark-up on every componant.

    Concur with Ebscrooge, install the largest oil tank as space will allow and get a quote from at least two other installers
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Dec 17, 5:26 PM
    • 27,360 Posts
    • 13,390 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:26 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:26 PM
    The major items are the WB 12/18 Boiler at around £2.295
    Originally posted by dogshome
    Agreed, that is the price we can get on the internet - and doubtless an installer will get it even cheaper. However the RRP price is just over £5,000 so I expect that is the price used to inflate the quote
    • footyguy
    • By footyguy 8th Dec 17, 11:17 AM
    • 4,136 Posts
    • 1,671 Thanks
    footyguy
    • #7
    • 8th Dec 17, 11:17 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Dec 17, 11:17 AM
    Morning everyone

    Just after any advice on the installation of a central heating system. It!!!8217;s for my grandmother who lives in a village with no mains gas. Typically people in the village have either LPG or oil tanks installed to power their central heating systems.

    Being a fairly old property, and her previous relunctance to change from her storage heating, we have only until now chipped away at her enough to get central heating installed.

    Which brings me to the reason I need some advice. My mum arranged for a plumber to go round and give them a quote for the works. The works entail:

    Supply and installation of:
    slimline bunded oil tank
    Worcester Bosch 12/18 oil boiler
    5 radiators inc surface mount piping (even though we only need 4)
    Room stat and controller
    Full set up and commissioning

    Now the installation is in a bungalow so all piping can go through the loft, and as mentioned it will all be surface mounted so no wall chasing or floorboard work involved.

    Anyway so the quote is £8,288 inc VAT

    my initial reaction when my Mum sent it over to me is that someone!!!8217;s seen two pensioners and is trying to get as much money from them as they can.

    Has anyone got any thoughts on that price, and more importantly, any recommendations on the use of either oil or LPG gas. I read yesterday Calor will provide and install the tank for free, as long as you use them for two years and pay a standing charge every quarter.

    Many thanks

    Luke
    Originally posted by Defensure
    If you think the price is too high, why not get some more quotes?
    Always a good idea to get more than one quote for any work that involves a not inconsiderate sum.

    Why do you think you only need 4 radiators???
    Again, more quotes from more experts will confirm or otherwise what is needed.

    Why not canvass the opinions of some of those in the village to see what the general consensus is as to LPG or oil?
    If it's all down to cost, you'll need to do some sums.
    (But yes, with LPG it does usually save you capital investment of the tank and it's installation, but the supplier will be getting it back one way or another...)

    One of the downsides of storing oil is possible theft of that oil, particularly when stored over the summer when you may not even notice it gone until you come to try to use it again in the winter.
    Last edited by footyguy; 08-12-2017 at 11:20 AM.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 8th Dec 17, 12:00 PM
    • 3,582 Posts
    • 2,228 Thanks
    matelodave
    • #8
    • 8th Dec 17, 12:00 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Dec 17, 12:00 PM
    Have you tried getting some more quotes, and even got some for LPG as well.

    How have you come to your conclusion about radiators? Have you done your own heat loss and sizing calculations or is it just a guess?

    If you dont have enough or they aren't sized correctly then you'll blame the contractor if the system doens't perform properly.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    Look after our planet - it's the only one with beer
    • malc_b
    • By malc_b 21st Dec 17, 6:44 PM
    • 999 Posts
    • 385 Thanks
    malc_b
    • #9
    • 21st Dec 17, 6:44 PM
    • #9
    • 21st Dec 17, 6:44 PM
    Cost wise oil is cheaper than calor gas (see here). Oil tanks are easier to site too as they can be closer to the house than large LPG tanks (unless you have the free standing cylinders but that works out more expensive). Oil and radiators will be more controllable than storage but storage provides heat all day so suits pensioners. You're unlikely to recover the cost saving between oil and E7 as there's not that much between them but it would likely make the house more saleable.

    It's all down to the controllability. If you want that then you need an instant fuel. You might also want to check out if where your mum lives has an oil buying club. These can save money and they remove some of the penalty in having a small tank (500l delivery is more expensive per litre than 1000l but in an oil club that difference disappears).

    If you want a cheaper option you might want to look at controls for the existing E7 or better E7 heaters. I assume you only have 4 E7 units and E7 units cost £150-£400 plus fitting. Modern ones sense the night time room temperature and adjust the charge to suit. Or you can get a unit which senses the outside temperature and adjust the charge to all units.
    • Mister G
    • By Mister G 21st Dec 17, 7:10 PM
    • 584 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    Mister G
    I think that the Nottingham Energy figures need to be treated with caution. They quote a Calor LPG price (not usually the cheapest in the market) of 39ppl.

    I pay 30ppl for my LPG (as do several others on this forum) which gives me a kWh cost of under 5p. This is cheaper than oil.

    It also has the advantage that it's cleaner and not so easy to steal!
    • malc_b
    • By malc_b 22nd Dec 17, 1:57 PM
    • 999 Posts
    • 385 Thanks
    malc_b
    Nottingham Energy is a bit off on oil too, 46.6 ppl in Nov 2017, 36.22 in Sept and Aug 2017. I run our local oil club and we got oil for 39.4 in Sept, 44.0 in Nov (36.0 in June and July). Do you see a seasonal variation on LPG BTW? I filled my tank in the summer but I'll probably need a 500 l top up in the new year. So my average price I guess is ~39ppl or about 4.4p/kWh.

    I think stealing issue would depend where you live. On an estate with people around all the time it would seem unlikely giving what's involved in taking 1000l of oil away.
    • Mister G
    • By Mister G 22nd Dec 17, 3:49 PM
    • 584 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    Mister G
    Nottingham Energy is a bit off on oil too, 46.6 ppl in Nov 2017, 36.22 in Sept and Aug 2017. I run our local oil club and we got oil for 39.4 in Sept, 44.0 in Nov (36.0 in June and July). Do you see a seasonal variation on LPG BTW? I filled my tank in the summer but I'll probably need a 500 l top up in the new year. So my average price I guess is ~39ppl or about 4.4p/kWh.

    I think stealing issue would depend where you live. On an estate with people around all the time it would seem unlikely giving what's involved in taking 1000l of oil away.
    Originally posted by malc_b
    My LPG has been 30ppl for the past 2 1/2 years, so no seasonal variation. It certainly does not seem subject to the large variations that you see with oil.

    We live in a village (hence no mains gas) and there has been a spate of thefts. People have lost anything up to 1000 litres in one go. They come in the middle of the night and can empty 1000 litres in about 10 minutes - quicker than it takes the tanker to fill it! They are very well organised - and completely silent.

    They also wreck your tank, so you have to buy a new one of those as well.

    Somehow, I don't think that they'll be doing that with LPG!

    I suppose to get a more accurate picture of total costs, you need to consider the cost of the boiler and servicing costs. LPG boilers seem to be several hundred pounds cheaper than oil and probably have less moving parts. I know that I pay £50 a year to have my LPG boiler serviced. There's also the cost of the oil tank to consider, as this tends to come free with LPG.
    Last edited by Mister G; 22-12-2017 at 4:05 PM.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 22nd Dec 17, 4:51 PM
    • 3,582 Posts
    • 2,228 Thanks
    matelodave
    If the NSH are working OK then there's really no economic advantage in swapping them out.

    Saving say 5p/kwh on fuel means you have to use 160000 kwh before you break even if it's gonna cost £8k for a new system.

    At around 12,000kwh a year that would be a payback of more than 13 years, more if you take maintenance costs into consideration.

    NSH dont need any maintenance, they just get on with it.

    Do Granny & Grandad need the disruption of the installation, a big tank in the garden together with the aggro of sorting out a tanker run a couple of times a year for no real financial advantage.

    If they are happy with NSH then I'd leave them alone
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    Look after our planet - it's the only one with beer
    • J B
    • By J B 22nd Dec 17, 5:04 PM
    • 2,800 Posts
    • 997 Thanks
    J B
    I pay 30ppl for my LPG (as do several others on this forum) which gives me a kWh cost of under 5p. This is cheaper than oil.

    It also has the advantage that it's cleaner and not so easy to steal!
    Originally posted by Mister G
    Yes, but the folks that sell LPG are rumoured to be thieves ...

    • Mister G
    • By Mister G 22nd Dec 17, 5:17 PM
    • 584 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    Mister G
    Yes, but the folks that sell LPG are rumoured to be thieves ...

    Originally posted by J B
    Tell me about it - I used to be with Calor and paying 55ppl!
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