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  • FIRST POST
    • met6173
    • By met6173 27th Nov 17, 10:17 AM
    • 44Posts
    • 7Thanks
    met6173
    Brittania Parking PCN
    • #1
    • 27th Nov 17, 10:17 AM
    Brittania Parking PCN 27th Nov 17 at 10:17 AM
    Hi
    My son has received a PCN through the post sent to the registered keeper. It says he failed to pay and display and are charging £100 reduced to £60 for early payment. There are 2 pictures on the letter, neither of which are timed, showing his car entering and exiting the car park. There is no picture of his windscreen which would surely be a better way to identify his failure to display. There is a time for entering/exiting the car park on the letter. My son can only find a void receipt where the machine played up but thinks he remembers it being an issue and trying again. Still waiting for him to check bank transactions to confirm ( he's a teenager!!) Is this worth appealing?
Page 3
    • Kirchenmaus
    • By Kirchenmaus 6th Jan 18, 12:14 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    Kirchenmaus
    If they’re not pursuing the keeper under PoFA, the timeline argument is redundant.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    They're probably pursuing the "driver" then, after assuming that the RK was the driver on the date of the parking incident. In that case, POFA is indeed irrelevant and this is simply a potential small claims case. The PPC will huff and puff, and if they have not managed to adduce evidence identifying the driver by then, they will fail in court. POPLA used to be more predictable, but they should fail there, too...

    --Kirchenmaus
    • met6173
    • By met6173 6th Jan 18, 12:38 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    Thanks, they are happy to get their money where ever it comes from so far as i can see but is it ok to post my POPLA appeal letter on here or is someone willing to read it over for me before i lodge it?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 4:00 PM
    • 58,576 Posts
    • 72,085 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes the regular posters (those with over 1000 posts at least) will comment for you when we see your POPLA appeal.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • met6173
    • By met6173 6th Jan 18, 4:50 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am writing to appeal a PCN issued to myself as the registered keeper by Britannia Parking. The alleged parking contravention dates back to 8th November 2017. The Notice to Keeper was issued until 23rd November 2017 and received 27th November. There are number of errors with the PCN issued by Britannia Parking.
    Britannia Parking have not met the keeper liability requirements and therefore keeper liability does not apply. Britannia Parking can therefore only pursue the driver. As the keeper of the vehicle, I decline, as is my right, to provide the name of the driver(s) at the time. As Britannia Parking have neither named the driver(s) nor provided any evidence as to who the driver(s) were I submit I am not liable to any charge.
    POFA 2012 Schedule 4, Paragraph 9.5 states

    (5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
    As already mentioned the PCN was issued 15 days from the alleged contravention.
    POFA 2012 Schedule 4, Paragraph 9.6 goes on to say
    (6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so !!!8220;given!!!8221; for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose !!!8220;working day!!!8221; means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
    After being issued on the Thursday 23rd November the letter was not received until Monday 27th November, some 19 days from the original alleged contravention.
    I do not believe that Britannia Parking has the authority to issue the PCN as they do not own the carpark and I dispute that they have the authority to enter into contracts regarding the land or to pursue charges allegedly arising. They do not own nor have any proprietary or agency rights or assignment of title or share of the land in question. I do not believe that the Operator has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park they do not own, or indeed the lawful status to allege a breach of contract in their name.
    Britannia Parking must provide the POPLA Adjudicator with documentary evidence in the form of a copy of the actual site agreement/contract with the landowner/occupier. Specifically, to comply with the Code of Practice, the contract needs to specifically grant Britannia Parking the right to pursue parking charges in the courts in their own name, as creditor. Please note that a 'Witness Statement' to the effect that a contract is in place between Britannia Parking and the landowner will be insufficient to provide all the required information, and will therefore be unsatisfactory.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 7:37 PM
    • 58,576 Posts
    • 72,085 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You need to number the paragraphs, and you should add the usual other template points from post #3 of the NEWBIES thread, to make the appeal deliberately long.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 8:44 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    Hi thanks for your help, I've added numbers to my paragraphs as well as some of the pointers from the post and will copy and paste
    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 8:51 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    i would post my latest draft but it wont let me? Any ideas why? It doesnt look like theres any limit to the number of characters in a post and it let me put the 1st draft up...
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 7th Jan 18, 10:36 AM
    • 2,749 Posts
    • 1,634 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Dear Sir/Madam,
    ........ The Notice to Keeper was issued until 23rd November 2017 and received 27th November. .......
    Originally posted by met6173
    This does not make sense, did you mean WAS NOT issued?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 7th Jan 18, 10:37 AM
    • 35,933 Posts
    • 20,202 Thanks
    Quentin
    i would post my latest draft but it wont let me? Any ideas why? It doesnt look like theres any limit to the number of characters in a post and it let me put the 1st draft up...
    Originally posted by met6173
    Try splitting it into multiple posts
    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 10:55 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    no, that didnt help...still says unable to post your message
    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 10:56 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    1. Britannia Parking have not met the keeper liability requirements and therefore keeper liability does not apply. Britannia Parking can therefore only pursue the driver. As the keeper of the vehicle, I decline, as is my right, to provide the name of the driver(s) at the time. As Britannia Parking have neither named the driver(s) nor provided any evidence as to who the driver(s) were I submit I am not liable to any charge.

    The wording in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 is as follows:

    ''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle:
    4(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. (2) The right under this paragraph applies only if

    (a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6*, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met;

    *Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4:
    6(1) ''The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)!!!8212; (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8. This is re-iterated further !!!8216;If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper MUST be given in accordance with paragraph 8.!!!8217;
    It is my understanding that for an operator to transfer liability for unpaid parking charges from the driver of the vehicle to the registered keeper of the vehicle, the regulations laid out in the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 must be adhered to. The Driver of the vehicle has not been identified (as confirmed in the operator!!!8217;s rejection of my appeal, dated xxth of xxxxx 2017) and the Notice to Keeper fails to comply with section 9 of PoFA 2012 (no windscreen ticket was issued), specifically the following passage:




    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 10:59 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    Its let me do this bit but now says i cant do next bit because of security tokens...what happened yesterday then it locked me out
    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 11:03 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    !!!8220;2) The notice must !!!8211; f) warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given !!!8211; (i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and (ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;!!!8221;

    The Notice to Keeper that was received (Parking Charge Number xxxxxxx, dated xx xxxxx of 2017) omits such information. I have included in my POPLA submission the two pages of the notice which confirms that such text is absent. The only instruction in this regard is as follows:
    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 11:03 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    !!!8220;Please be advised that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full. As we do not know the drivers name or current address, and if you were not the driver of the vehicle at the time, you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them for payment.!!!8221;

    Evidently, the operator has withheld from me (as the registered keeper) the required details of my liabilities in the event that the driver is not identified. This might be an omission on the part of the operator or a deliberate attempt to mislead, but regardless, the Notice to Keeper fails to comply with PoFA 2012 (section 9).
    As this operator has evidently failed to serve a compliant NTK, not only have they chosen to flout the strict requirements set out in PoFA 2012, but they have consequently failed to meet the second condition for keeper liability. Clearly I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly elaborated.
    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 11:04 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    1. POFA 2012 Schedule 4, Paragraph 9.5 states

    (5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
    As already mentioned the PCN was issued 15 days from the alleged contravention. If Schedule 4 mandatory documents are not served at all, or in time (or if the document omits any prescribed wording) then keeper liability simply does not apply.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Jan 18, 11:07 AM
    • 18,044 Posts
    • 28,577 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    If you are copying and pasting from Word, this could be your problem. MSE Advisory note:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5706338
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 11:08 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    POFA 2012 Schedule 4, Paragraph 9.6 goes on to say
    (6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so !!!8220;given!!!8221; for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose !!!8220;working day!!!8221; means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
    After being issued on the Thursday 23rd November the letter was not received until Monday 27th November, some 19 days from the original alleged contravention. Again I must state that If Schedule 4 mandatory documents are not served at all, or in time (or if the document omits any prescribed wording) then keeper liability simply does not apply.
    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 11:08 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    4. I do not believe that Britannia Parking has the authority to issue the PCN as they do not own the carpark and I dispute that they have the authority to enter into contracts regarding the land or to pursue charges allegedly arising. They do not own nor have any proprietary or agency rights or assignment of title or share of the land in question. I do not believe that the Operator has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park they do not own, or indeed the lawful status to allege a breach of contract in their name.
    Britannia Parking must provide the POPLA Adjudicator with documentary evidence in the form of a copy of the actual site agreement/contract with the landowner/occupier. Specifically, to comply with the Code of Practice, the contract needs to specifically grant Britannia Parking the right to pursue parking charges in the courts in their own name, as creditor. Please note that a 'Witness Statement' to the effect that a contract is in place between Britannia Parking and the landowner will be insufficient to provide all the required information, and will therefore be unsatisfactory.
    • met6173
    • By met6173 7th Jan 18, 11:09 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    met6173
    Apologies if this is all disjointed but it was the only way the forum would let me post
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Jan 18, 12:09 AM
    • 58,576 Posts
    • 72,085 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hard to tell but you haven't used the templates from the NEWBIES thread about signs and and about landowner authority. It's not long enough, IMHO!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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