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  • FIRST POST
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 23rd Nov 17, 3:56 PM
    • 41Posts
    • 11Thanks
    SamSteel89
    County Court Claim Regarding Parking Tickets
    • #1
    • 23rd Nov 17, 3:56 PM
    County Court Claim Regarding Parking Tickets 23rd Nov 17 at 3:56 PM
    Hi MSE,

    I have recently received a county court claim against me regarding two parking tickets from a private parking company. This is the first court claim I have received so I am unsure how to continue and would appreciate some advice.

    Background:
    The parking tickets in question are dated 19/11/2016 and 16/03/2017 and are in relation to when my vehicle was parked at my now ex-girlfriends flat. The parking spaces in question are sign-posted 'Visitor Parking', implying they are free to park but underneath on a separate sign it states the spaces are for permit holders only and penalties will be issued without one

    I have had no penalty notices or correspondence regarding the tickets whatsoever until the other week when I received a county court claim in the post for 257 in relation to both parking events.

    Following further advice online, I have acknowledged the court claim via the online website and chose to defend the amount in full. I have not yet received any further information regarding the claim. I have also requested information from the DVLA, asking for any information the parking company requested regarding my vehicle and which dates they attempted this. The DVLA have since responded via a letter which states the company are registered with the IPC the only request made against my vehicle is dated 17/04/2017. I assume this means the parking company has failed to request the information properly for the first parking event but has complied with the rules for the second (being within 28-56 days)?

    I have no idea what to do next, but with all the information online saying most cases will not go to court and indeed if they do, most defendants will win, I would appreciate any further advice to avoid paying this claim.

    Thanks for your time,
    Sam
    Last edited by SamSteel89; 15-04-2018 at 8:23 PM.
Page 4
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 2:32 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    OK

    Have you not noticed the first line, which is quite quite important?

    The Judge has decided you dont have a chacne
    HEnce why the hearing is only 10 minutes.

    You must have entered an appalling defence, or the judge is another fan of Devere
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 13th Apr 18, 4:50 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Yes i did notice thankyou. i've also quoted that firstline on here a couple of times
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 13th Apr 18, 4:53 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    and as mentioned, my defence was appalling. I am unfamiliar with court proceedings and its paperwork which lead me to produce a defence containing a few short bullet points. Had i of known that was my only chance to defend myself i would have made a proper defence. However i was under the assumption that the court hearing would be my chance to defend myself
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 6:02 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    It's your chance to present your defence, yes

    That's why they don't want a ws, the court is essentially going to just dismiss your dlaim. Would have been good to have filed an amended defence
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 13th Apr 18, 6:09 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Hindsight is a wonderful thing if i could go back and change it. So is there any point in me doing this WS? I will be emailing the court asking for a chance to produce the WS and just stress that my defence was inadequate due to my lack of court experience
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 15th Apr 18, 11:18 AM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Beavis was for a 50 minute overstay in a free shopping centre car park where there was no facility to purchase extra time. The PPC rented the car park from the landowner for 1,000 a week. I am struggling to see how it is relevant.

    Why have you not mentioned the lease in your defence, perhaps CM can enlighten me?
    Originally posted by The Deep
    are there any other cases you can recommend for me to reference instead of Beavis? i will be uploading a WS this evening ready to submit to the court tomorrow
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Apr 18, 11:20 AM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    They don't want a ws, and the court hasn't allowed enough time to do anything other than introduce the case and the rule in the c favour.
    You could send to the court but they won't read it, I don't think.

    Have you followed the exact advice Jonnersh gave you waaaay before?
    Last edited by nosferatu1001; 15-04-2018 at 11:23 AM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 18, 11:28 AM
    • 37,275 Posts
    • 21,442 Thanks
    Quentin
    are there any other cases you can recommend for me to reference instead of Beavis? i will be uploading a WS this evening ready to submit to the court tomorrow
    Originally posted by SamSteel89
    You can't do this!!


    As you are being advised, afraid you just need to turn up with your trousers over your arm ready for your punishment!
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 15th Apr 18, 11:32 AM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Well i called the court and spoke to a lady on admin who said i should email stating i am unhappy i have not been given a chance to produce a WS and request an opportunity to do so. Is this not worth doing?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 18, 11:34 AM
    • 37,275 Posts
    • 21,442 Thanks
    Quentin
    Did you follow her advice??
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 15th Apr 18, 11:50 AM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Did you follow her advice??
    Originally posted by Quentin
    i have emailed the address she gave, yes. however it is the weekend so i won't get a reply until tomorrow earliest. I basically noted my inexperience with court matters and asked for an opportunity at a second defence and WS to allow me to fairly fight the claims against me
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Apr 18, 11:51 AM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    So you need to urgently finish your ws
    You got given some stupidly good suggestions from c-m much earlier on. Did you follow them?
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 15th Apr 18, 11:58 AM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    The post C-M made about the WS? Yes, I followed it as best I could and used the cases he mentioned to write my WS. Although it has been questioned why I'm referring Beavis? I have no knowledge of previous case examples so I have only refered to Beavis and Lengyal and Coupon mentioned
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Apr 18, 12:09 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    She, not he

    BEAVIS assists you, because it was about a commercial site, and ther was. Commercial justification for the charge. Here that cannot exist
    I hope you have photos etc to ref from your ws, as basically the signage is your best point. If it only states "visitors parking" and makes no mention of needing a permit, you should be fine

    But this is what you need to do today, so you can file the ws tomorrow.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Apr 18, 12:27 PM
    • 10,002 Posts
    • 9,828 Thanks
    The Deep
    BEAVIS assists you, because it was about a commercial site, and ther was. Commercial justification for the charge. Here that cannot exist

    What I said, Beavis has nothing to do with residential parking. Who stated this red herring?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 15th Apr 18, 2:02 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    I'm guessing because Beavis is a commercial case and therefore has implied costs that can be recovered. With this being residential, my car being parked there isn't costing the company or land owner any money and therefore the costs they are asking for are unjustified?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Apr 18, 6:18 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Exactlynthat
    But you need to get this into a good concise witness statement expalon8ng why the signage was complied with, and how cases such as BEAVIS ASSIST YOU in showing this a,isn't is. Clear penalty, not allowed under uk law.
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 15th Apr 18, 8:16 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Ok, so how about this as a draft? I've tried to mention the points given to me as best i can. I am still unsure about the difference between Skeleton and WS so please correct me if any points are in the wrong place. I can also upload the photo evidence if needed but for purposes of posting on here i have left them blank:
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 15th Apr 18, 8:21 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Witness Statement

    In the matter of

    Devere (Claimant)
    V
    _______ (defendant)

    Claim No.

    Witness statement of Mr _____, defendant:


    I am the Defendant in this matter and I am unrepresented, with no experience of Court procedures. If I do not set out documents in the way that the Claimant may do, I trust the Court will excuse my inexperience.

    In this Witness statement, the facts and matters stated are true within my own knowledge, except where indicated otherwise.

    1. As seen in evidence E.6, the parking bays in question display a single sign stating !!!8216;Visitor Parking Only!!!8217;. This sign does not contain the information required by law or IPC standards (E.2, 3 & 5) to clearly convey to any driver that they are entering a contract with the land owner and/or private parking company and therefore no charge can be enforced under UK law. No mention of permit. No mention of contractual sum.

    2. The maximum sum that can be requested by the claimant can only be equal to the sum displayed CLEARY on the sign in question. There is no sum visible on this sign.

    3. In Beavis, it was held by the Supreme Court that 85 is an already significantly inflated sum. The 250 asked for by the claimant far exceeds this amount.

    4. The land is not owned by Devere and only the land owner can recover cost for damages, of which there is none (Pace Lengyal, E.7).

    5. No entrance signs to the property that clearly warns of penalty charges or permit requirements (E.1, 4, 5 & 6).

    6. Unlike ParkingEye v Beavis, the parking bays in question here are not for commercial use and do not require Pay & Display tickets. My vehicle being parked in these bays has not cost a penny to neither the land owner nor the PPC.

    7. No !!!8216;Notice to Keeper!!!8217; or any other form of correspondence was received by me from Devere at any point, until I had been sent a claim form from the court. This was the first time I had any knowledge of the charges in question.

    8. Devere have only requested the vehicles information from the DVLA for the second parking charge, meaning they have not followed DVLA guidelines for the first and cannot prove who was driving the vehicle at the time (E.9).


    Skeleton Argument

    ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2013] EWCA Civ 1639 Appended as evidence E.1
    18.2 Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore, as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area.

    ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2013] EWCA Cive 1639 Appended as evidence E.2
    28.1 A driver who uses your private car park with your permission does so under does so under a license or contract with you. If they park without your permission this will usually be an act of trespass. In all cases, the driver!!!8217;s use of your land will be governed by your terms and conditions, which the driver should be made aware of from the start. You must use signs that make it easy for them to find out what your terms and conditions are.

    Parking Eye Ltd v Beavis [2015] EWCA Civ 402 Appended as evidence E.3
    2.2 Signs must conform to the requirements as set out in schedule 1 to the code.
    Part E states that signs must:
    Have clear and intelligible wording and be designed such that is clear to the reasonable driver that he is entering into a contract with the creditor or committing a trespass as the case may be.


    IPC Code of Practice Appended as evidence E.4
    Entrance signs should:
    a) Make it clear that the motorist is entering onto private land.
    b) Refer the motorist to the signs within the car park which display the full terms and conditions.
    c) Identify yourself (where you are a limited company. This should be by reference to your full company name, your company number and the jurisdiction within which your company is registered.


    IPC example of Entrance Sign Appended as evidence E.5

    Photograph of Entrance to East Cliff Manor Visitor Parking Appended as evidence E.6

    Photographs of East Cliff Manor Parking Bay and Sign Appended as evidence E.7

    PACE v Lengyal (2017) Transcript Appended as evidence E.8

    DVLA Letter Regarding Devere!!!8217;s Request for Information on Vehicles Owner Appended as evidence E.9
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 15th Apr 18, 8:25 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 730 Thanks
    claxtome
    I suggest you anonymise your name as some ppc monitor these forums and may use it as evidence....
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