Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 23rd Nov 17, 3:56 PM
    • 41Posts
    • 11Thanks
    SamSteel89
    County Court Claim Regarding Parking Tickets
    • #1
    • 23rd Nov 17, 3:56 PM
    County Court Claim Regarding Parking Tickets 23rd Nov 17 at 3:56 PM
    Hi MSE,

    I have recently received a county court claim against me regarding two parking tickets from a private parking company. This is the first court claim I have received so I am unsure how to continue and would appreciate some advice.

    Background:
    The parking tickets in question are dated 19/11/2016 and 16/03/2017 and are in relation to when my vehicle was parked at my now ex-girlfriends flat. The parking spaces in question are sign-posted 'Visitor Parking', implying they are free to park but underneath on a separate sign it states the spaces are for permit holders only and penalties will be issued without one

    I have had no penalty notices or correspondence regarding the tickets whatsoever until the other week when I received a county court claim in the post for 257 in relation to both parking events.

    Following further advice online, I have acknowledged the court claim via the online website and chose to defend the amount in full. I have not yet received any further information regarding the claim. I have also requested information from the DVLA, asking for any information the parking company requested regarding my vehicle and which dates they attempted this. The DVLA have since responded via a letter which states the company are registered with the IPC the only request made against my vehicle is dated 17/04/2017. I assume this means the parking company has failed to request the information properly for the first parking event but has complied with the rules for the second (being within 28-56 days)?

    I have no idea what to do next, but with all the information online saying most cases will not go to court and indeed if they do, most defendants will win, I would appreciate any further advice to avoid paying this claim.

    Thanks for your time,
    Sam
    Last edited by SamSteel89; 15-04-2018 at 8:23 PM.
Page 3
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Apr 18, 11:32 PM
    • 61,458 Posts
    • 74,340 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think a WS is a good idea too, as per the set aside threads where they too get a short hearing.

    DO NOT file or bring the photo of the sign on the wall with terms on it! FORGET THAT ONE.

    ONLY file the one saying 'visitors parking only' and point out in your WS that it does not mention permits in those bays, no does it mention any contractual sum of money purporting to be a parking charge.

    File PACE v Lengyel, as evidence, to try to force the DJ to actually read a PROPER decision:

    http://www.parking-prankster.com/more-case-law.html

    It's a transcript in one of the links there, and there's a blog explaining it here:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/pace-given-pasting-in-manchester.html

    And state that the maximum sum that the Claimant could claim is the sum on the sign, and there is no sum stated on the vistor parking sign, and no signs, no caveat, no contract.

    Even if the Court is minded to say that the second sign elsewhere on a wall applies, that means the contractual sum remains at the 100 stated there. Not double that and add 50!

    Parking firms not only cannot claim for damages (as confirmed in Beavis, because they are not in possession of the land) but it was also held by the Supreme Court that a parking charge (85 in Beavis) is already significantly inflated to include significant profit over and above the low costs of a parking enforcement model.

    There are no damages and these cannot be added, or this would constitute double recovery and in any case, damages are only possible for a landowner to claim, under the tort of trespass (PACE v Lengyel confirms).

    Fight to distinguish your case from Beavis!

    Sounds like this Judge wants to deal with all parking charge cases as if Beavis applies carte blanche.

    Draw the distinctions, show that this Claimant not only does not have clear signs (unlike in Beavis) but also has no legitimate interest or commercial justification excuse (the main reason that PE got away with disengaging the penalty rule, which is always potentially engaged in parking charge claims). In Beavis it was said that every case must be fact specific and what must be considered in every case is the 'legitimate interest' (or not) and the prominence of the terms & charge on clear signage, otherwise a parking charge falls foul of Lord Dunedin's penalty rules, which still apply.

    You MUST have mentioned signs in your 3 bullet points? So build on that with a decent WS & evidence.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 08-04-2018 at 11:41 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Apr 18, 3:48 AM
    • 3,261 Posts
    • 5,469 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Sounds like this Judge wants to deal with all parking charge cases as if Beavis applies carte blanche.
    It's Devere and Bournemouth court. The honesty of the PPC will not be questioned, only the facts of the matter so it will be down to having a clear view of the issues.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 9th Apr 18, 10:51 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Thanks so much for the help guys and Coupon-Mad, that's last message gas been the most helpful so far with the references to cases that I should include. I will write up a WS asap and ask someone to read over it before I submit. Thanks again
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 12th Apr 18, 11:19 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Coupon, I've typed up what i believe to be a skeleton argument draft. is there any way for me to message it to you for a quick review? i just need to finish my WS now. Thanks
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th Apr 18, 11:23 PM
    • 4,179 Posts
    • 5,486 Thanks
    waamo
    Coupon, I've typed up what i believe to be a skeleton argument draft. is there any way for me to message it to you for a quick review? i just need to finish my WS now. Thanks
    Originally posted by SamSteel89
    Post it up here so several people can review it. There's nothing to be gained by hiding it, the parking company get to see it soon enough anyway.
    This space for hire.
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 12th Apr 18, 11:38 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Ok I'll post it here. So this is just the Skeleton Argument, the last few examples of evidence contains photographs of the parking bays in question displaying only a sign that states 'visitor parking only' and a lack of entrance signs. I have also included a letter from the DVLA showing that Devere did not request the registered keepers information for the first ticket, only the second. The PACE v Lengyal transcript will also be included. The evidence orders will change as I complete my WS
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 12th Apr 18, 11:41 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    The layout also differs from the Word document when pasting on here:


    Skeleton Argument

    ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2013] EWCA Civ 1639 Appended as evidence E.1

    18.2 Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore, as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area.

    ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2013] EWCA Cive 1639 Appended as evidence E.2

    28.1 A driver who uses your private car park with your permission does so under does so under a license or contract with you. If they park without your permission this will usually be an act of trespass. In all cases, the driver!!!8217;s use of your land will be governed by your terms and conditions, which the driver should be made aware of from the start. You must use sign that make it easy for them to find out what your terms and conditions are.

    Parking Eye Ltd v Beavis [2015] EWCA Civ 402 Appended as evidence E.3

    2.2 Signs must conform to the requirements as set out in schedule 1 to the code.

    Part E states that signs must:
    Have clear and intelligible wording and be designed such that is clear to the reasonable driver that he is entering into a contract with the creditor or committing a trespass as the case may be.

    IPC Code of Practice Appended as evidence E.4

    Entrance signs should:
    a) Make it clear that the motorist is entering onto private land.
    b) Refer the motorist to the signs within the car park which display the full terms and conditions.
    c) Identify yourself (where you are a limited company. This should be by reference to your full company name, your company number and the jurisdiction within which your company is registered.

    IPC example of Entrance Sign Appended as evidence E.5

    Photograph of Entrance to East Cliff Manor Visitor Parking Appended as evidence E.5

    Photographs of East Cliff Manor Parking Bay and Sign Appended as evidence E.6

    PACE v Lengyal (2017) Transcript Appended as evidence E.7

    DVLA Letter Regarding Devere!!!8217;s Request for Information on Vehicles Owner Appended as evidence E.8
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 10:29 AM
    • 3,420 Posts
    • 4,243 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Do the WS first. That must be submitted first.

    AFTER you get their WS, then you can add to your skellie by showing how their claim is flawed / not proven / as well as sumarising your defence.
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 13th Apr 18, 11:05 AM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Oh so does the Skeleton not need to be submitted until I go to the hearing? The problem is, the judge hasn't even asked me for a WS so I doubt I'll be getting one from Devere. Also, it is now less than 14 days until the hearing but I've heard people mention I can submit up to 7 days before?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Apr 18, 11:15 AM
    • 9,990 Posts
    • 9,804 Thanks
    The Deep
    Hang on, is this not a residential claim. Whyn no mention of the lease/ASY, why mention Beavis. Have I missed something?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 11:22 AM
    • 3,420 Posts
    • 4,243 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Oh so does the Skeleton not need to be submitted until I go to the hearing? The problem is, the judge hasn't even asked me for a WS so I doubt I'll be getting one from Devere. Also, it is now less than 14 days until the hearing but I've heard people mention I can submit up to 7 days before?
    Originally posted by SamSteel89
    Wait, this doesnt make sense

    EVERY court hearing document tells you a SPECIFIC time period by which documents must be exchanged. This MUST include your WS plus ANY documetns you rely upon. Usually this is 14 days before

    Check your court hearing documetn, the one setting the date and saying when the C had to pay the fee by. Somewhere on that document - G;'TEED - it will tell you this date.

    You MUST send in a WS ASAP. Draft it here.

    Skellie is done a couple days before the hearing. You have not been reading post 2 of the newbies thread where this is CLEARLY set out.

    If the C hasnt sent in a WS to you, CALL THE COURT. ASK THE COURT if they havea WS yet, and state you dont have one.
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 13th Apr 18, 12:06 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Hang on, is this not a residential claim. Whyn no mention of the lease/ASY, why mention Beavis. Have I missed something?
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Correct, this is residential. This event was over a year ago at my now ex-girlfriends flat. The parking bays are for 'visitors' but there is a separate, not-obvious sign which states the bays are for visitor permit holders only. Beavis and Lengyal are the two cases i have been advised to look at
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 13th Apr 18, 12:09 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Wait, this doesnt make sense

    EVERY court hearing document tells you a SPECIFIC time period by which documents must be exchanged. This MUST include your WS plus ANY documetns you rely upon. Usually this is 14 days before

    Check your court hearing documetn, the one setting the date and saying when the C had to pay the fee by. Somewhere on that document - G;'TEED - it will tell you this date.

    You MUST send in a WS ASAP. Draft it here.

    Skellie is done a couple days before the hearing. You have not been reading post 2 of the newbies thread where this is CLEARLY set out.

    If the C hasnt sent in a WS to you, CALL THE COURT. ASK THE COURT if they havea WS yet, and state you dont have one.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    I can promise you, i have had no mention of a WS or anything else required of me since deciding to defend the case. My correspondence from the court goes as follows:

    a) Claim form & response pack
    b) Notice of proposed allocation to small claims track
    c) Notice of transfer of proceedings (asking me to await judge instructions)
    d) Notice of hearing (containing the exact text i mentioned in a previous post)
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Apr 18, 12:20 PM
    • 9,990 Posts
    • 9,804 Thanks
    The Deep
    Beavis was for a 50 minute overstay in a free shopping centre car park where there was no facility to purchase extra time. The PPC rented the car park from the landowner for 1,000 a week. I am struggling to see how it is relevant.

    Why have you not mentioned the lease in your defence, perhaps CM can enlighten me?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 13th Apr 18, 12:25 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    Beavis was for a 50 minute overstay in a free shopping centre car park where there was no facility to purchase extra time. The PPC rented the car park from the landowner for 1,000 a week. I am struggling to see how it is relevant.

    Why have you not mentioned the lease in your defence, perhaps CM can enlighten me?
    Originally posted by The Deep
    i read the transcript from the Langyal case and the judge referred to Beavis in that case and the points seemed relevant to my case in terms of signage. Apologies but i am unsure what you mean by lease?

    just an update: i have spoken to the court admin and they have suggested i email them asking for my wishes to be referred to the judge in regards to the WS and receiving a WS from Devere
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 12:26 PM
    • 3,420 Posts
    • 4,243 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    I g;tee you the hearing document will have told you when to exchange DOCUMENTS by. It does not state WS. Its part of the standard text used on ALL such orders.

    Post your hearing letter up. ALL sides.
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 13th Apr 18, 12:43 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
    My Notice of Hearing definitely does not include document instructions. I'm happy to u0load the letter but have no idea how to
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 12:46 PM
    • 3,420 Posts
    • 4,243 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Go to tinypics or somewhere else equivalent, photograph taking out revealing details, and post here. You will need to change HTTP to HXXP as the forum may block you from posting real links.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Apr 18, 12:47 PM
    • 9,197 Posts
    • 9,371 Thanks
    KeithP
    I'm happy to u0load the letter but have no idea how to
    Originally posted by SamSteel89
    Upload images of the document to somewhere like tinypic or dropbox and the post links to those hosted images here.
    .
    • SamSteel89
    • By SamSteel89 13th Apr 18, 2:18 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SamSteel89
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,544Posts Today

8,295Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @Dora_Haf: @MartinSLewis So many people on here saying they're great until you get your PROPER job. What if Your proper job Is ON zero?

  • RT @hslt88: @MartinSLewis I?m a trustee for a youth charity. We only have a limited pool of funds for flexible youth workers for holiday sc?

  • RT @Dan_i_elle_88: @MartinSLewis Loved working zero hour agency care work. Never out of work and I loved having the flexibility! Only left?

  • Follow Martin